there can be NO democracy until the egyptians separate church and state.
to pretend that a theocracy is a democracy is a lie.
a theocracy puts one group over the others and is therefore not free and equal for all.
islam does NOT separate church and state and will never yield a democracy..
they have apostasy and blasphemy laws in egypt, qatar, saudi arabia etc..
apostasy and blasphemy are from the distant past in civilized countries and unless they are removed there will NEVER be equality for ALL.

sins and crimes are different...
a religion can decide what happens to you in the after life (if there is one) but the state should decide what happens in this life.

Well said Peter and 100% correct. Only through a secular system of governance can theirr be equality and democracy

But the point is there are no secular system in the governance now that article 2 is part of the constitution.

Article 2 allows
complete islamic sharia LAW.

BECAUSE Article 6 is OVER but now the legislative & judical are 100% islamic they will pass sharia. Article 2 will be irreversible.

Article 6 states 'the president is iummune to ALL authority'

Article 2 states 'al arsard mosque (leading islamic learning) will be consulted for law where the principles of sharia will be the main source of legislation'.

Article 2-19 defines, specific jurisprudence of article 2.

If you are religious... LOL. Let's say Isaiah 19: 1-4 has come true...

2 “I will stir up Egyptian against Egyptian— brother will fight against brother, neighbor against neighbor, city against city, kingdom against kingdom.

3 The Egyptians will lose heart, and I will bring their plans to nothing; they will consult the idols and the spirits of the dead, the mediums and the spiritists.

4 I will hand the Egyptians over to the power of a cruel master, and a fierce king will rule over them,” declares the Lord, the Lord Almighty.

Then... Isaiah 19: 11 says the advisers of mursi

11 The officials of Zoan are nothing but fools; the wise counselors of Pharaoh give senseless advice. How can you say to Pharaoh, “I am one of the wise men, a disciple of the ancient kings”?

And

If Isaiah 19: 5 - 10 comes TRUE, I am going to CHURCH!

Statistically

Well, see you are absolutely right that Article 2 completely pulls the rug flat out from under any semblance of rational dialogue. See and once that camel gets its nose under that tent, there's simply no going back for folks in Egypt, which is why those brave secularists and Christians in the streets must not budge one square inch from their principles if they hope to obtain freedom.

Yes but it is too late.

The salfists & islamists who now have 100% seats will not give up their seats.

Because islamic lunatics LOVE power and love to lie. History has shown they will NEVER give up their power by their own submission.

Exactly. Egypt better storm the palace and THROW OUT THE ISLAMISTS! The Muslim Brotherhood Islamists will stop at nothing to put Shariah Law in place in Egypt and ENSLAVE the entire country in this barbaric slavery. If they stand down its just a matter of time before the lunatic Islamists do it all behind their backs!

After all, ISLAM DEMANDS IT. Just like Imam Rauf said "ISLAM and SHARIAH LAW CANNOT BE SEPARATED." And with that statement right there with Rauf should be all the proof America and every free nation needs to know about ISLAM that is should be BANNED from the free world.

But as we all sit back and watch Shariah Finance grow like wildfire in the free world its just a matter of time before all the other Shariah slips into place. Like the bible says "Money is the root of all evil" and Shariah finance, Shariah Mortgages are being embraced by America and the entire free world for the LOVE OF MONEY! ISLAM will have the entire world in civil war if its not stopped in the West.

Well said Peter and 100% correct. Only through a secular system can their be equality for all.

I beg to differ Peter:
We israelis, prrety much enjoy the religion ability to order & maintain a high moral and ethical actions; Its all about what you want from the religion:

It is no secret that every religion has its "slope's" - when it comes to certin points
But you can choose what represents you from the religion:
The IDF ethical code is a jewish one
The Base of the govermant is to preserve life - also a jewish law
We can Negotiat with terrorist in order to bring back a soldier - 1027 terrorist for 1 soldier - thats also from the byble ... something that the americans cant do [for example]

Turkey and Israel "enjoys" the religion and uses it to do more right

We are a democracy - a jewish one

But Turkey is not run by fanatics like hamas, the MB and MORSI WORSI here.

True - that was my point ...

its not about religion - it about us - the people

Liberals need to justify why my second $30,000 of income should buy less
than my first $30,000. I should be allowed to keep the same percentage
of EVERY dollar I earn. And those that CHOOSE to not earn a living
should be denied any public funds.

So, let me get this straight, You don't want any of the "Your" Money to be paid in taxes. you want to maintain every dollar, you are given and let those who are dying suffer because you only care about yourself?

He isn't "given" those dollars, he earns them, they are the product of his labor, they belong to him. The government must show a right and purpose to take them. Taking them from one person to give them to someone else is NOT their right. As a matter of fact, it's questionable whether they have the right to collect an income tax at all. I build guitars for a living. Collecting an income tax is ethically the same as showing up to my workshop and demanding I surrender a percentage of the instruments I build. I trade the product of my labor for money, that money belongs to me, NOT the government. You suffer from the very naive idea that we all work for our government. It's meant to be the other way around.

You forget that the government has helped you throughout life to make your living as a guitar builder work. Without government maintained and built roads, no one would come to your business. Without government education, you may have been illiterate, innumerate (for the less-educated among us, that's illiteracy except for math instead of language), or lack the scientific, measuring, or musical understanding required to build a guitar.

You act as if the government has never given you anything, when in fact you've been given a great deal. As such, you owe something in return - this is how our social contract works. Otherwise, you have a government that can't afford anything (because no one pays their taxes, or doesn't collect sufficient taxes for what people want). Remember Kennedy's pronouncement of "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"? For people who make high incomes, what you can do for your country is pay taxes.

Either way, they have a Constitutional right to collect an income tax, thanks to the 16th amendment.

As for justifying progressive taxation, where the rich are taxed more than the poor, that's simply because the poor only make enough to cover their cost of living, if that (by the way, yes, everyone should be paid a living wage). The rich make far more than that - they can afford food, shelter, and transportation without any trouble whatsoever. Hence, they can be taxed more without direct harm coming to them. No, they won't put as much back into the economy without that additional discretionary income, but the money that is taken is used to support things like schools, roads, the military, and the elderly. In fact, all of those things come long before the poor are supported.

Our biggest expenditures are three things: Social Security (elderly), Medicare (elderly), and the military. Poor people come far behind that. It's less about shifting around money to screw over rich people at the benefit of the lazy and more about taking care of our parents and grandparents as well as support national defense (from a conservative POV) or our military-industrial complex (from a liberal POV).

Let this be a lesson to our Lord and Savior Barack Obama...If the anointed one continues his Socialist Marxist Power Grab Agenda along with Hateful Harry Reed, and Broom Stick Pelosi. The Republican Speaker put concessions on the table to raise taxes with a whole lot of disgruntled Republicans...Where the hell is the counter-offer from the White House? Do the Democrats even have a plan? Any of you Dems who want to be moronic about the Fiscal Cliff being some sort of game, then you have miscalculated the deep hole we are in primarily because of Obama who has racked up more debt then any other President, and wants to spend more then any cuts the President is proposing.

So you are saying taxation should be to that limit until it harms the person

Not necessarily. It simply means that raising taxes on rich people by two percentage points will not cause them to lose their homes and businesses and go bankrupt.

So....who's gonna pay for the military?

Except that more and more people are beginning to believe it IS their right. We've seen what incrementally damaging wealth inequality is doing to societies. The government's job is to maintain and protect that society, and when wealth disparity begins to destroy it (as it is now, as it did during the Gilded Age), the government should get involved to even the playing field.

You can live in this idealized world of rhetoric of, "ITS MUH MONEY! YOU DON'T GET TO HAVE ANY OF IT!" all you want. It doesn't change the fact that you're either a part of a society, or you're not. It doesn't change the fact that you didn't earn that on your own; you had the help of a public education system. Roads that were built with the help of others. Facilities that were built without your help yet you benefited from. Social services that were rendered to you through the use of collective taxes.

There is EVERY legitimate reason for government to collect taxes. And that's because we live in the world of actual reality, where real solutions need to occur. Foregoing reality in favor of highly idealized rhetoric is the purview of children with not enough world experience.

If you don't like living in society, or this particularly one, find one you do.

The question is "HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH!?" They are pushing for 3 or 4 dollars for every 10 dollars you earn! Thats dam near half of everything I earn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

when i used the term, 'given" i don't refer to the US Government, i mean the person he is working for.

rather keep my money than let it go to immoral wars. And wars that kills innocent men, women, and children. Obama sucks has a point

No, he doesn't. I didn't want wars either, but it wasn't put to us to decide. The Bush Administration wanted to go to war, and so, they did. And now we, the people, are stuck with all the bills for SAVING RICH PEOPLE FROM GOING BROKE and in effect TAKING US WITH THEM. And you knew it was coming. What did you expect to happen down the road when we go to war during a recession?
Wow, I would've liked those that served in WWII to hear what your saying.

That's idiotic as well as immoral. You attribute unemployment to the individual choice not to work. Explain how, after October, 1929, one third of the nation's labor force chose overnight not to work for the next ten years.

This is the same kind of 1di0t that wants a strong military, but they don't want to pay for it, is the same analogy of the guy that wanted a small house with very big rooms..

id rather keep my tax money than see it go to immoral wars based on lies. Iraw being one of them. What a load of sh * t

iraq**

The point is that the first 30 thousand you earn is bare minimum, and to tax a person who only earns that first 30 is pointless. It hurts that person and keeps them down.
People who may otherwise flourish and be an asset to their country and people are lost to an earning bracket trap.

Your second 30 thousand is gravy. It allows you luxuries and a standard of life that is beyond what you actually require, and so it goes in turn that you would help your society that you are free to live in to pay more from this percentage. The amount taken in taxes isn't even close to an amount that would make it counter productive to earn that higher wage.
And so it should go, higher and higher. It will always be in your interest to earn more. it will never be counter productive to you to earn a higher wage. You will simply help your society to pay more, the higher you earn because you can afford it.

This includes all people. From the lazy to the strong. stupid or disabled. Immigrants and citizens alike. It's your society and you are one of a larger group.
If you truly believe you aren't capable of being one of those poor folks, you're wrong. You just found an easier road. Be thankful that you did and pay your freaking way.

This is all off subject, however, you're both right to a degree. The more a person earns, the more the infrastructure, paid for by taxes,

There are a lot of people out there who are very willing to work very hard, who even take risks to be able to do so, who are still not able to find work as a result of their circumstances. You seem like a man who believes in God. Did Jesus peace be upon him ever teach "Let the lazy poor man starve to death"? Do you think your sustenance is by your merit, or a blessing from God?

Talk to your conservative Congressmen. They okay this stuff too. : )

Because the world operates on reality, and not your idealized rhetoric.

The liberals don't need to justify anything to you. You sir, are responsible for knowing the history of this country. The liberals are not responbile for the current tax system. We have had a tax system where you pay higher percentages for higher income for awhile now. Most countries have it.

Fanatics like Hamas and Mossad. Mossad being a bigger fanatic.

One of the reason's why the Mossad exists is because of terrorist organizations like Hammas

You mean the reason Mossad exists is to help the Zionists steal more land. Hamas exists to prevent Israelis swooping down and eliminating the Palestinians. It's sad that Hamas has to kill civilians. Mossad still out does Hamas when it comes to terrorism.

it is only a democracy if all the inhabitants are treated equally under the law.
no inhabitant must be forced to obey a religious law.
Turkey is NOT an example of democracy.
Turkey is 99.8% muslim....that must tell you something.

> "it is only a democracy if all the inhabitants are treated equally under the law"

We are all equall as israelis and the supreme curt makes sure of it. The supreme curt, doesnt allow laws that are for jews only - we take what we can and what we want - all israelis

if the religious law is to preserve life - then yes - all the druz and the bedui will behave according to it

im not that sure of Turkey but i do belive that they are a democracy

i think if you check on turkey you will find that religion is part of the state and paid for by all taxpayers, even the few that are not muslim.

Making up facts on the fly I see.

Secularism in Turkey defines the relationship between religion and state in the country of Turkey. Secularism (or laicity) was first introduced with the 1928 amendment of the Constitution of 1924, which removed the provision declaring that the "Religion of the State is Islam", and with the later reforms of Atatürk, which set the administrative and political requirements to create a modern, democratic, secular state, aligned with Kemalist ideology.

Nine years after its introduction, laïcité was explicitly stated in the second article of the then Turkish constitution on February 5, 1937. The current Constitution of 1982 neither recognizes an official religion nor promotes any. This includes Islam, to which at least nominally more than 99% of its citizens subscribe.

BUT, the people in Turkey are not acting like the Muslim Brotherhood dummies here in Egypt.

Freedom and equal rights for every single Egyptian is what the Egyptian people want ... AND NOT what the Muslim Brotherhood, and PHARAOH MORSI WORSI want to DICTATE to the people.

WORSI is still resisting and NOT LISTENING to his people. He doesn't appear to be serious about equal rights in the eyes of the Law.

We allso have a minister of religion that provides texpayers money to raise musque's as synagogue's, for religious schools ect'
We cant ignore the jewish agancy also - though this is for jews only
you cant become a new citizen that easily if you are not a jew ...

We do invest in religion - just in a fair way

That's nice to know. But if you can't become a new citizen without being Jewish that sounds like discrimination to me. So if I convert to Judaism can I become a Jewish citizen?

If you are born to a non-Jew in israel - you are a citizen

Yes - if you convert to Judaism you can become a citizen and you will recive aid to become one - the first 5 years you dont pay taxes .. first year you dont pay rent .... there are discounts when they buy a house...... discounts at schools .. ect'

oh - good luck with that - you have to follow 613 rules and study for like 6 month ... not an easy task ... im not sure that i pass them

Part of the argues in israel are about that discrimination - try to think about this - in 48 - about 1.3 milion arabs left their houses, so that Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon & Jordan could destroy israel ...

What do we do ?
These people wants us dead - just like hamas and fatah

The arab's that stayed are part of the israelis - they fight in the army - have representatives in the parlament [Kneset]....

At least Fatah has recognized Israel's right to exist. Or at least their leader has.

And at the same time called Hamas for unity
What do i belive?

Yes, and at the same time are calling Hamas for talks

Imprecise statement: 'Turkey is 99.8% muslim....that must tell you something.' What should that tell to you is not a bold and empty assumption, dear Peter.

Are you suggesting that if people in a country believe in particular religion (Islam) that makes the country automatically a nondemocratic one? As far as I know, secularism and democracy refers a way that people choose to be governed. Turkey is not ruled by Sharia, which is an Islamic law.

On the contrary, it is a democratic country. The decree of democracy in every country could be questioned by its active civil society. I see enthusiasm of Turkey to enhance its democracy over different issues. Of course, it is not perfect and definitely needs to be developed more.

All in all, if you want to attain your words a status of fact, you should provide logical and strong reasoning into your argument. As young Lincoln once stated that if you name a tail as leg, it does not make the tail leg and you cannot say horse has 5 legs in the end, i.e. naming something, does not make it true nor change the reality. You say Turkey is nondemocratic, but your aphorism means nothing and does not change the fact that TURKEY IS A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY.

...and in Germany, 70% of the Catholic Church revenue comes from a compulsory church tax unless you formally "leave the church"....would you call Germany a non-secular country?

Turkey is not a democracy.