Back when I was in high school, I was completely pro-abortion. I made abortion jokes etc.

Now I see things differently:

If an animal tried to kill its own young, we would recognize it as seriously ill, perhaps driven to madness from stress, starvation, etc.

Can you imagine a female dog biting at its swollen belly to kill its developing young? No! it doesn't happen. Only human females are so sick as to try to kill their own offspring!

Every other organism on the planet does everything in its power to reproduce: from birds migrating halfway around the fucking planet to salmon swimming upstream against the current leaping into the air and trying to avoid getting caught by preying grizzly bears, to sea turtles laying eggs and painfully covering them with their clumsy flippers.

Even insects don't kill their own young.

It's insane when you really think about it.

Here is the one area where I disagree with what you have said - mentally or physically deformed offspring. Animals will not "abort" these, but will abandon or kill them after birth. Humans will likely abort these types of infants, though not always, which when you think about it really showcases what is different about humanity and its capacity for compassion. Abortion proponents would argue that aborting such fetuses is a form of compassion, and I struggle with this because I can see both sides of it. For me, I don't think I would want to abort in most cases - all but the absolute most severe. But, to accept an argument like yours based on natural tendencies would seem to lead to the conclusion that perhaps it is better to terminate the pregnancy early rather than engage in infanticide like the rest of nature would.

That said, your point is still valid.

Nothin wrong with taking your retarded offspring on a canoe trip through the alligator sanctuary and having an accident.

If we were doing that, there would be no feminists.

It was an ancient form of eugenics to weed out the weak and sickly. We should revive it.

Today we can repair much of the damage that once rendered babies unfit. But feminists will kill even healthy ones anyhow...

Didn't the Spartans do something similar?

Not just the spartans. A lot of greek tribes did.

My understanding is that most ancient cultures were okay with abortion. I think the difference is that in those days physically and mentally deformed children were pretty doomed to die within the first 5 years anyway, so what was the point in even trying.

That doesn't change the need for a cold heart to do it.

Our ancestors had harder hearts. They lived tougher lives closer to the edge of survival. They didn't have the resources to waste that we do.

According to the movie 300, they had a big pit where they threw them in.

I'm pretty sure that movie was accurate... :-)

you mean the spartans didnt speak with an english accent?

Well the King spoke with a Scottish accent. That part was accurate.

Lol

You mean they were not in reality Hollywood actors under cover?

I consider it a historically accurate epos.

Me like. Very plausible.

The Romans had some stones about all this. Their notion of abortion was to carry the baby to term, look the baby in the eye and say, "I just don't want you," and leave it on a hillside to die.

Modern abortion just seems so cowardly.

"The Romans had some stones about all this. Their notion of abortion was to carry the baby to term, look the baby in the eye and say, 'I just don't want you,' and leave it on a hillside to die."

Many of those babies ended up being adopted by Christians, even if only to be raised to be used as slaves. Guess which religion inherited the Roman empire? History is cyclical and here we are, it's the end of an empire, again.

Are you saying there will be a fetus zombie apocalypse?

Romans left their daughters to die. Christians adopted them.

Looking a baby in the eye, speaking to it and leaving it on a hill to die still sounds cowardly. It's not like that baby can give you the finger, tell you to fuck off or do anything at all to make you afraid to leave it to die.

What's not cowardly is to choose to put the effort in to raise your own offspring properly. Now if you produced a deformed or retarded baby, then maybe you should get clipped so you don't produce any more of those, but it's still cowardly to walk away from that child whom is already in the world.

Cowardly like everything else.

Not like a baby could understand that. Spartans chucked off mountains. Modern abortion is less wasteful. Earlier destruction conserves resources.

How so? at least the fetus can provide nutrients to the soil! lolzlzz

Hardcore.

If anything cannot survive in the wild it shouldn't be supported, unless it offered a great bonus to the tribe, family group, nation. Not everyone deserves or should be saved. I'm a harsh bastard, maybe I'd think differently if it was my own kid, I'll willing admit to hypocrisy if that happens.

If someone is a dead weight to the tribe then no welfare should be given. I'm particularly thinking about drug addicts.

Real compassion would be to give the handicapped a job they are capable of doing and pay them for that. Or training for a job they are capable of doing. What do they say, give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime.

If they can't be trained to do anything, then free government welfare to survive does need to be tied to the agreement that they will not reproduce.

If they do reproduce, they are cut off from government funding and if they want their baby to get government funding, they have to give the baby up. Otherwise, they'll just take the kids funding and give it to themselves.

Also, it actually shouldn't be government welfare like I stated above. Churches and private organizations should give the welfare.

Give a man a fire and he will be warm until the fuel is consumed. Light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

Convents etc used to care for unwanted and problem children of the past. Many got pretty draconian of course, and people hate them for it now.

This should be policy. I see it as common sense.

I wish i could upvote number 2 a trillion times.

You cannot beat Santa Clause!

The conditions for welfare for those who cannot support themselves is mandatory sterilization.

We're humans. It's impossible to predict who will be a dead weight to the tribe and who will become its champion. Like Stephen Hawking.

There's an effort there to contribute, he didn't just give up and sponge off society. The same for disabled and abled people who go on and achieve something or do great work in the community on a small scale, there's efforts there to give something to the community.

What about many of the drug dealers??
Nary a fine citizen in that group.

I wouldn't go so far as to say I was pro-abortion, but I didn't speak out against it in highschool or college and I honestly thought to myself from time to time, "It is her body."

That was until I found myself outside an abortion clinic with a women whom at the time I didn't want to have a child with. Needless to say, I didn't let her go through with the abortion we were there for. it just hit me standing there that we were there to murder our child, no matter what the teachers and TV had been saying all those years.

It was tough at first as we didn't have the best relationship. Now we have four kids, she is a stay at home mom and we have a great relationship. She pretty much supports every decision I make, including to drop $500 on a copper still so I can use the Juniper berries growing on the tree out back to make gin. She doesn't even question it. And she's grown into a great mother as well.

Um. You may want to study up on your zoology. There are MANY species that not only kill but sometimes eat their young. And not, it's not always the mothers...So, you might want to find a different justification to back up your argument...

@Waldemar Pabst: Wow, you are one stupid mother fucker.

This is all great (just kidding, it's not) but humans are more complex than animals and have many different factors present that animals don't have. Analogy doesn't work.

I have seen cats eat kittens, mice eat their litters. I have intervened to stop a donkey from killing a foal. And these were healthy offspring.

I grew up on a farm and have handraised many animals abandoned by the mother.

Obviously you have had little to do with animals

you are wrong. i've seen female cats kill all her just born kittens when she didn't feel she could provide a safe environment for them

Perhpahs you being there watching was what caised her to think it was an unsafe environment.

You are wrong. Male lions, for instance, kill the young produced by other male lions.

It is not a matter of illness or morals, just of evolutionary adaption.

Some female insects eat their male counterparts after sex.

Deep-sea male fish latch onto females and melt into them until they share one bloodstream.

Some frog species males in the hundreds rape a single female until the female dies and they are able to extract and fertilize the eggs from her dead body.

Wolves and apes both have cruel status behavior where those who do not "belong" will be excluded and denied belonging and basic needs.

Nature is fucking freaky man.

Note the "its own young" aspect to this. Lions kill other males' offspring so their line will dominate.

Yeah, oh well. It's an unimportant detail in my eyes. I am sure there are some species somewhere where parents kill their young for some reason.