Who said that modern religions don't practice human sacrifice. The anti-abortion religious movement is predicated on the sacrifice of women and children. It's just less obvious because there is less visible blood and pageantry.

The Catholics do not belong in health care. It is just as stupid as letting health care options be decided by employers. The only people who need to be concerned about delivery of healthcare is the doctor and the patient who decide jointly. It is typical of the overreach and sense of entitlement that religions use to disgrace their own deity. But then, if you've been a hypocritical misogynist, bigot and homophobe since your early indoctrination, it is unlikely you will achieve any sort of enlightened attitude toward healthcare for women.

The Catholics do not belong in health care.

LOL, and you called me racist.

There shouldn't be any issue with it so long as they don't try to foist their religious beliefs on others.

Individual people who happen to practice the Catholic religion have every right to train for and seek employment in healthcare.

The Catholic Church, as an institution, shouldn't be involved in it.

This is why saying what one means is important.

Why not? So long as a group is willing to follow the law, what does it matter?

(I'm intentionally ignoring the financials, which should have tighter restrictions than they currently do.)

What a moron. I WORK at a catholic hospital (Providence St Peter's in Olympia WA) and I can assure you that that they foist their religious ideas onto their patients. We have a morning prayer over the loudspeaker every day. Each room has a piece of wood with a dead corpse hanging off it. Want to go get an abortion at a Catholic hospital? Racist shows his ignorance.

"Each room has a piece of wood with a dead corpse hanging off it."

I hope they replace them with frest ones at a decent interval. Especially in hot weather.

I think it is very discouraging to the patients recovering from surgery or fighting a terminal illness to have to see this corpse on the wall every day. Yuck.

So, Catholics should be barred from operating hospitals, even if they were to follow the law and not act inappropriately because you work in a Catholic hospital where they act inappropriately? Really? And, I'm the racist and moron now?

All Catholic hospitals are part of huge corporate Catholic conglomerates. There's the Providence Megalith, PeaceHealth, Dignity Health, Catholic Healthcare West. They do indeed share policies and procedures - and whatever one Providence hospital does to deny appropriate healthcare service - all Providence hospitals do.

And, your point? Does this mean that they should be denied the chance to provide healthcare even if they did follow the law? That's what you're saying with your blanket statements and your defense of said statements. Since when is it OK to make general statements like that, barring whole classes of people from positions in society regardless of whether they follow the rules of society or not? That's textbook bigotry.

Oh wow - do you have a job or not? The Catholics are among the most despicable of the brainwashed and immoral christians. They have a long history of persecuting everyone - and women especially - torturing and burning them as "witches" or worse. They have a long tradition of extracting and extorting money from their "sheeple" so that their priests can molest young boys in relative luxury. The Catholic hospitals have a policy of allowing the woman to die during childbirth rather than extract a dead fetus. They collect feder5al dollars and refuse to follow federal laws. Catholic hospitals will bill you thousands of dollars in futile efforts to keep barely warm corpses alive on ventilators when their families are begging to achieve peace for their loved one. I do work in a Catholic hospital and I'm pretty sure you don't - so your opinion means nothing to me.

Oh wow - do you have a job or not?

What does this have to do with anything?

The Catholics are among the most despicable of the brainwashed and immoral christians.

Wow, generalize some more why don't you? Perhaps you meant to say the leadership, and not simply level that charge at all Catholics?

They collect feder5al dollars and refuse to follow federal laws.

Finally, the crux of the matter. I agree. They are not following the law. You seem to think that this should disbar them from ever being allowed to own a business. I think we should make them come into compliance with the law and make that a condition of anyone owning this type of business and then allow anyone who can follow the law to run this type of business. My way is inclusive and follows other laws. Your way is prejudiced and seeks to disbar citizens from doing things that other citizens are allowed to do. So, what happens when the Catholics (or other Xian groups) start lobbying to say that "immoral atheists" shouldn't be allowed to do X or Y?

I do work in a Catholic hospital and I'm pretty sure you don't - so your opinion means nothing to me.

Ah, I see. So, because you work for a Catholic hospital that means that you're allowed to be a bigot. Got it. That's about as bad as people claiming they can't be racist because they have a black friend. Fact of that matter is that where I work or don't work has no bearing on whether you're being a bigot, and you know it. I agree with you that Catholic hospitals are not following the law and are not giving good healthcare, because they are following the idiotic dictates of Catholicism instead of doing what's right for the patient. That still doesn't excuse bigotry.

And, if my opinion means so little, why are you still arguing? Seems like it does matter to you.

What this have to do with anything? Perhaps it has to do with the title of the article you're commenting on? Perhaps?

Whether I have a job or not has nothing at all to do with anything. That you thought to brought it up only shows that you're reduced to ad hominem in order to support your bigotry.

Obviously you're not a woman, you don't work for Catholics, you don't know shit about actual healthcare, and you don't have a job. So tell me again why your opinion of anything - much less me - means more than the rotted vegetation that clings to the slug slime on the bottom of my shoe?

And you obviously know nothing about me. Go ahead and continue to be a bigot but know that it doesn't help. When more rational people point out that the people running Catholic hospitals are causing real harm, they'll point at people like you as their defense. You're part of the problem.

Yeah right. Don't you have a job to go to?

But they are foisting their religious beliefs on others, or did you not read the post?

So, if they were to follow the law, you would still deny them the ability to run a hospital? What other groups should be denied the ability to do things in this country and based on what classifications?

They infest the hospital with their sick death cult. They impose their weird religious superstitions on their customers. They deliver outmoded, dangerous, and misogynistic healthcare.

And, if they didn't do that, you'd still deny them the financial opportunities that you'd allow for everyone else, because you're a bigot.

Oh boohoohoo. I already offered to loan you my hankie, didn't I? Yeah - it's still a little stiff with the snot and dried tears from when Rubio blew his nose and bawled, but I bet it is still absorbent enough for you as you mourn the loss of Catholic imperialism, oppression, and greed. When you're done with it, I think that nasty Sheriff Arpaio will be needing it..

You dumbass, I'm an atheist who opposes Catholic bullshit. I also just happen to think it's the right thing to do to stand up and call out atheists who act like bigots too, because 2 wrongs don't make a right. Just because the Catholic church sucks doesn't mean that we get to act like assholes too. If you'd stop with your bigoted nonsense for 2 seconds and actually read what I've said, you might have noticed.

If they 're refusng to actually provide health care, they need to GTFO and make room for a real hospital.

Where did I say differently? What I said was that if they are willing to follow the laws and not push their religion on others, they should not be barred from owning and operating hospitals, which you and many others have disagreed with. So, why do you think Catholic organizations, which have as much right to enter the business sphere as other organizations, should be barred from owning and operating a hospital as long as they follow the rules? If you agree they shouldn't (be barred), then why are you arguing with me?

The problem is, which you don't seem to be grasping, is that *they are not following the laws*. They are not offering proper health care. They are refusing to properly treat patients, endangering their health and lives.

If they are providing proper health care and following the law, I don't give a shit who they are or what imaginary friends they have. The problem is with most religious "hospitals" is that they *don't* provide proper health care, because they put their imaginary friend and their dogma before the needs of the patients.

Yeah, I get that. What I replied to was a blanket statement that "The Catholics do not belong in health care." That Catholic hospitals are not following the law and are not treating their patients in the way they should does not mean that blanket statements like the one I cited are OK.

And, based on your second paragraph, it really seems that you agree with me, which leaves me wondering why you are arguing with me on this.

The Catholics don't belong in health care because they refuse to provide proper treatment and follow the law. Find me a Catholic hospital that provides proper treatment and follows the law.

So, you're still arguing with me over this? Why? You've already agreed (haven't you?) that if they were to follow the law, there would be no issue. So, why are you still arguing?

Because they never do follow the law or provide real care and never will. They consider their hospitals an extension of the Catholic church, to be rin according to Catholic dogma, not secular law or accepted medical practice. They'll let a woman bleed to death if the fetus she is miscarrying still has a heartbeat. and that's why they have no business running hospitals.

It still doesn't excuse blanket generalizations that are bigoted on their face. "You people will never learn, therefore you people should be barred from full participation in society," is not OK.

I'm all for bringing in the ACLU and suing them into compliance with the law and providing proper health care. I'm all for having people on hand to ensure that proper health care is administered (ensuring they don't agree to follow the law and then renege on the agreement), at least until they show they are serious about following the law. Let's do that instead of making comments about how Catholics are incapable of following the law and need to be barred from full participation in society.

There's nothing bigoted about keeping people who choose to cause harm to others out of health care.

There is in making blanket statements that "those people" can't be allowed access even if they were to follow the law. How would we feel if Xians made arguments that atheists shouldn't be allowed in healthcare because atheists are necessarily immoral due to not believing in god? We would immediately see it as bigotry and argue against it. When fellow atheists do the same thing towards Xians, we should be ready and willing to call it out.

If Chelonia Testudines had said that any Catholic hospitals that are not following the law should be taken under state control until they are willing to follow the law, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But, it's quite apparent what CT meant, especially given that CT has doubled down on it - Catholics should be barred from participation in this part of society, period. That's bigoted. Why are you defending that, especially since you seemed to agree with me that there wouldn't be an issue if they followed the law?

You're ignoring the fact that they *aren't* following the law and never intend to Because Jesus,

The first part is news to me, considering I've said that they aren't following the law. But, hey, why actually read my statements when you can just complain about me and refuse to denounce obvious bigotry, right?

The second part may be true, but it's immaterial. It's still bigoted to claim they should be barred even if they follow the law.

Where did I make that claim?

It's the claim that I objected to which made you jump down my throat to argue with me. When I tried to confirm that you don't support the claim, you weren't very clear on whether you do or not and you continued to argue with me, even though I made it clear that that was the only thing I was contesting.

Sheeesh. You need to reread your paragraph here to Margaret out loud. Ten times. Is that not the most convoluted word salad? You so much want to argue you can't keep straight what it is you are arguing about. You need to find something better to do with your life than prop up the Catholic monopoly of shoddy healthcare delivery. Catholics - using federal dollars to push their ideological agenda on vulnerable patients.

Don't blame me if you can't understand simple words and sentences. You made a bigoted claim. I called you out on it.

And, fuck you for claiming that I'm propping up Catholic healthcare. What I'm doing is calling you out for your bigotry. The sad fact of the matter is that the way things stand, Catholic run healthcare is dangerous to others, and we need groups like the ACLU to step in - but to step in to make them comply with the law and actually provide healthcare. We don't need bigots like you claiming that they need to be barred from healthcare services completely. You sound like Trump talking about how Muslims need to be barred from the country.

Hey - watch your language there.

Your bigotry is much more offensive than using a 4 letter word.

The people who set these policies and those who enforce them need to be charged either with practicing medicine with no license or with practicing medicine in ways that go against standard practice.

Whats even stranger is that the Catholic Hospital expansion comes at a time when the Catholic Church as a whole seems to be in heavy decline in America. The various DIocese are closing a parish a week, priests and nuns are not being replaced, and sex abuse scandals are causing bankruptcies all over the place.

But because of the way our healthcare works, having a network of hospitals is useful, so the Catholic Church can extend it's ownership of healthcare by providing an attractive collective bargaining position even while they churches themselves have never been less powerful

I don't think it's strange; I think it's a deliberate strategy. This way they can both make money and force people to follow their rules, even if they're not members of the club. Win-win.

Well, the odd thing is it doesn't seem like the money the hospitals make really benefits the larger church all that much. As far as I know, they keep the hospital money within their systems... it's not like that money is being used to build or maintain churches here in the US. It probably couldn't be, or it would risk hospital money being a target for lawsuits.

I wonder if the decline in church-going creates an excess of clergy who are finding new occupations in catholic hospitals.

That's because it's a way for them to limit liabilities. These small churches can't be expected to pay out lots of money for settling cases with their clergy, because they operate on small budgets separate from the opulent wealth that the Vatican pulls in through their commercial exploits.

It's an interesting irony that the Catholic church is extending its reach over the number of people who are subjected to its rules against their will, even as the number of people who willingly follow its rules is dropping faster than ever. That might be a good subject for a future post...

Related reference

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...