56 inch chest must have a minimum 18 inch heart and address veterans problems without giving way to personal egos. Soldiers do not work conditionally when ordered/given a task----they give 1005 to the nation with pride.

Ashok ji, you think whatever is already given is not enough?
Doesn't BSF also serve the nation with pride? They are being paid less than the army but they are not complaining (as yet)?

Even you are serving-----you need to cover your back side--that is why Armies are required----without it you will be bound by what has happened to the country for last 1000 years.No service is suicidal except Armed Forces----You also fatten bali ka Bakra before killing it......take it in the right spirit----every citizen is contributing to the country----it is the degree of pers risk that is determining factor..Tell us one Govt service where you retire at age 35......Adjust these trained manpower in BSF/CRP or any govt service----they will not ask for anything and the country will be well served-----Why dont you pursue this fact----unless you have self serving ideas.

Agreed with all points...Thats why army officers are paid more than IAS officers, get more perks & now they got OROP also but i guess its not enough for them...
In which other job you get lifelong pension after retiring at 35? These days some people start their career at 35.
Armies all over the world follow similar policies..you are very well aware of these facts when you join it.. Then why crib now?

you MP does not serve a single year dong nothin.He get life long pension.Can You justify that?Where did you from come to know army officers are paid more than IAS?Bye the what the hell the IAS does? all arithmatic jokers

Wish u got facts right. IAS GETS 2 INCREMENTS FREE ON Joining. The they always have have more Pay and NFFU status as nearly all babus get OROP from backdoor even if they don't hold post they get yearly rise. Pls read Wikipedia site and then comment. Shallow knowledge of any subject is bad. JAI Hind.

Why two increments on joining?
What could be the rationale?
Why not to others? Why discrimination? .
Could any one throw some light please.
Regards
Major p j rao Retd.

Rajesh ji, if IAS is better then who is forcing anyone NOT to become IAS? Sour grapes?
The point here is not IAS-Army comparison but blackmailing & inflexibility on OROP..

Ask Lalloo ji and his sons, there is no barrier.

BSF not designed for any offensive. Not avowed to cross border. Not trained to do nor has equipment. Sorry but smuggling and infiltration do exist. Yeah tough conditions but not as tough as Army
No way comparable to Army

Ofcourse army folks are better trained & equipped. Point was how they are (kind-of) in same bracket but not holding PM for ransom..

Mr. Randeep first of all i am sorry if something has hurt u but please don't underestimate people who has serve the nation by sacrificing his life, family and many other factors involved whoever he may be rank wise, we should not look at him with inferior feeling .

Here people fighting against corrupted attitude of politician, no mater whether orop has been granted or not , nothing greedy about it,people can survive without orop. Condition of service in defense with ref. to civil including paramilitary are totally different , for you knowledge please carry out comparative study with full information.

When did I underestimate army or their sacrifice? That's besides the point.
It's funny, some of you folks (not you Sunil) are trying to link this issue with corruption, MP's salary, scam etc. As per that logic if everyone is looting money why can't we :)
I know you guys don't mean that but i am just going by the logic of some folks.

Give 56" inch chatiwala guarantee for full length service up to the age of 60 years to all armed forces employee.......OROP not required.....can it?????

well say

By any chance did u find time to read 7cpc Report. Read comprehend and can comment. See how IAS GET EXTRA INCREMENT ON PAGE 89 AND how the learned Judge Reduces one increment of pensioners on page 418/ 419. In addition he reduces 3 to 4 increments of Pensioners by saying that you will get increments in no of years served in that PAY BAND not INCREMENTS WILL NOT be number of years served in that RANK. SO even I have served in rank of say Colonel for 6 years but have served in that PAY BAND for two years. I will get ONLY ONE INCREMENT. that's 7cpc for all veterans. ENJOY. AND THIS IS MADE BY A JUDGE.

It is advisable to approach Honourable Supreme Court to seek justice simultaneously Sir.
Regards

Well Hon Ram Jethamalini has agreed to represent ESMS along with other Eminent Lawyers in about 2 weeks time.

Excellent.
Thanks to Sri Ram Jethamalini Sir
For services to Veterans.
God bless him and his family.
Regards
Major p j rao Retd.

Jethmalani is notorious for taking up infamous cases to stay in limelight. Good luck!
I predict copycat cases filed by other central govt employees (BSF etc are already showing inclination). Thanks modi for opening can of worms. Wasn't congress smart enough not to implement it as they could see it coming..?

Serve in army then speak , don,t speat with ref to somebody, I have already served, I don,t know who r u , you have no right call them greedy neither u r demanding OROP nor granting . Serve the nation and speak boldy you psycophant

I would have ignored your message until i read the last word you wrote.
Based on the language you used, you must have been a hawaldar, batman or a sepoy. You can always get similar security jobs after retirement.. So atleast you shouldn't complain...

@Randeep Mangat, You appear to be an ex Army disgruntled ex soldier.You havent. I suppose. commented so much on the lacks of crores that went down the drain in scams in the previous Govt. but OROP hurts you more.

What made u think it didn't hurt me ?
You making all these assumptions only because I don't agree with your thoughts..

Ek Dhin Pakistani aakey thumara jaisey lokhon ka ---- par maarega,tab thujey maalum hoga ki faji kya hota haiaarmy

You are not making any sense idiot!

Ek Dhin Pakistani aakey thumara jaisey lokhon ka ---- par maarega,tab thujey maalum hoga ki faji kya hota hai aarmy-meaning is .One day pakistanis will come and kick at you like ass
holes.Now you can understand what I said-

You & fauji... Haha.. You will reject even as batman...pakis will not even waste a bullet on you.. Ek thapad ki maar hai tu... Bhaiyye!
Go sell idli-sambar madrasi!!

Now I shall make more sense for you-A day will come-Pakistani will kick at you like ass holes

Learn English first & then write.. You madrasi piece of $hit!

Is being a havildar, sepoy or sahyak (batman doesn't exist since long) any mean job? No. They are the back bone of fighting arms. I have been Commanding Officer of a fighting unit. We always are proud of our men. The mutual respect and loyalty between officers and their men only wins wars. In the fighting arms same officers and same men serve till either retirement or having achieved the highest rank in the unit to cement this relationship. This relationship continues even after retirement. No other service, including the CAPF, have this arrangement. Among many factors that distinguish Army from the other forces this is an important factor. You need to understand the ethos and traditions of the Army before you start commenting on them.

Sir, couldn't agree with you more. Thanks for the insight & knowledgeable details.
I didn't want to demean any post but when your peers use derogatory comments like 'sycophants' etc., I have to put them in place (being a Punjabi I can't stop myself from paying back in the same coin) without crossing a decency line.
Ever since I have put in those 'greedy vets' comments, I have received lots of feedback. Some people, like you, Aditya etc. are making valid comments & trying to educate by sharing details whereas some morons are just spitting venom as I don't agree with their thoughts :)
I will share my thoughts regarding your other comments soon.

Regards

You can not be a real Punjabi,I can bet on anything on earth

What bet you wanna have, moron?. Don't make a fool out of yourself..

Thank you Mr Randeep. I am certainly not in agreement with those who use demeaning words. Well, I guess emotions drive them. I am sure they will realise their folly.

The aim of my, as well as some of our colleagues who are commenting on these pages, is to put things in the right perspective. Because, so many people who are commenting on OROP are ignorant of the details of the OROP issue and it's history. Making comments, or, passing judgements, with out knowing the entire issue is very unfair. The whole OROP impasse is due to the manipulations of bureaucrats, who were, and are, averse to benefits given to the armed forces, which are not available to them. If you see the composition of successive pay commissions you will see in none of them there is an armed forces member, whereas the bulk of the beneficiaries are serving and retired armed forces personnel. Members, and those assisting the Commission, are almost always members of IAS and other allied services. They manage to get what they want by suitably brainwashing the Chairman and the Govt. Repeated pleas, including that put forward now in reply to the Govt's truncated OROP award, have fallen on deaf years. Isn't it injustice to both serving and retired members of the Armed Forces?

Sir, your comparison & grudge might be genuine but i am sure if you ask them (IAS), they will also point out some grudges against the govt. I am looking at the bigger picture. $40 billion defense budget for a developing country is already too much. If at all a govt has taken out heart & made efforts to fulfill a decades old demand inspite of incurring additional 9000 crores, the other side (read army) should also take out heart & let go of certain 'flaws' in its implementation.. You should "not go a bridge too far"...

Mr. andeep, -are you IAS, IPS or from some other cadre, but seem that you have some jealusy with vetrans, please do not comment without knowledge, I think you have not seen the conditions of the vetrans in the fields areas, where they can not get message from their family members also for months even longer days

Narinder ji, i am just a normal person who likes to express & speaking his heart out. As i mentioned, no one is debating the hard life of army. I am surely not jealous either.
Btw my wife & mom are after my life since morning to let go of ipad & stop taking pangas with all faujis (pun intended) but i am trying to make you guys see the other side of the coin. I don't have time for this everyday but this platform is making me take out the negative energy i get seeing you folks still not happy even after so much is being given & still look UP at people better positioned than you (read IAS) & not look DOWN at people worst placed than you.It seems you all live inside cantonment areas all your life, interact mainly with defense people & while doing so, miss other aspects & perspectives in life.
I have high regards for defense folks but on this continued stir, i strongly disagree...

Once again, i must say your comment has not taken in to account relevant facts. 40 billion defence budget is related to the threat perception facing the country. Unfortunately, in threats perceived, both from Pakistan & China, the situation was allowed to be created by inept handling of the border issues. Right at the outset, we mishandled Kashmir issue, allowing Pakistan to send in it's jihadis supported by their Army. Maharaja Hari Singh was allowed to prevaricate, giving time for Pakistan. Indian Army was inducted belatedly when Srinagar Airport was about to fall. However, after induction Indian Army had evicted the invaders to the present line of control, when the then PM took decision to cease fire. If he had not, the invaders would have been evicted completely. Subsequently too, both after 1965 & 1971 wars, territory captured by the Indian Army was handed over back, with out any reason, vide Tashkent & Simla accords respectively. In fact, we failed to take advantage of the 93000 POWs we were holding, we could have negotiated Kashmir settlement by holding this pawn. we didn't. Result - we are at a perpetual war with Pakistan. Army is not only deployed throughout the line of control, but also is fighting the low intensity conflict unleashed by Pakistan inside Kashmir. After defeat in 1971 war, Pakistan decided they cannot defend themselves with out nuclear weapons. So they went in for that. Indian Army cannot fight a war in a scenario of nuclear asymmetry, so India had to go in for nuclear weapons. There you are. Imagine the cost of it.

Regarding China, we had good relations with them till the time we committed the mistake of political asylum to Dalai Lama, despite clear warning from China. Prior to that, the then premier Chou-en-lai had, in a letter to the then PM, declared categorically there is no border dispute with India. But, after we gave asylum to Dalai Lama, situation changed. In 1962, empty rhetoric in Parliament, to throw Chinese out, with out having adequate forces for it, inspite of the advice of the Corp Cdr then, had resulted in a debacle the Country & Army cannot forget for all times to come. Govt's failure then is attempted to be hidden from the people of India by the successive Govts by not releasing the Henderson Brooks Report. People of India are still being kept in dark.We had to raise Army strength and equip & maintain them. Even now we are unmatched.

There you are. Can you reduce defence expenditure in the scenario explained above. In my opinion, the prudent thing to do is to resolve border dispute with China by negotiations at the earliest - conceding Aksai Chin (which is already under their occupation) and arriving at a workable boundary in Arunachal - and demarcate the border with China in a formal agreement. This will reduce our commitment against China and we can proportionately reduce force level and defence expenditure. But this needs enormous political courage. Vote bank politics will not allow that.

How can IAS have grudge, when they managed to raise their pension from 33% to 50% by reducing defence pension from 70% to 50% in 1973 and lately by giving themselves Non Functional Upgradation (getting higher grade pay with out actually getting promoted to that grade) in 6th CPC and resultantly every one retiring at the highest grade with automatic entitlement for OROP.

You are talking about 9000 crore commitment. Do you know that the Govt has given away more than 50 thousand crores to appease the corporates and an equal amount to write off bad debits (again of well to do people). Do you know how much Govt has frittered away in NFU - 14000 crores. Foreign nations that the PM visits are being given thousands of crores. Why do you have a grudge against veterans, who have given away best of their lives to the Nation?

Finally, let me say the fight is not about money. It is the ungrateful attitude that the Govt is showing to the veterans vis-a-vis the civil services. Take for instance the CPCs. The largest population affected by it are serving and retired soldiers and the commission does not have even a single representative from this community- all are IAS and allied services people who are inimical to the interests of serving and retired soldiers. Is it not injustice in a democratic country? There are many more such insults which need to be addressed.

Sir, your comments were really informative & thought provoking. Good to know these historical details (thats of my interest). Thanks for compiling it. Salute!

Well, regarding your NFU comment, its certainly a genuine grudge. Unfortunately, those babus got it changed cleverly without much hoopla. If they had to fight for it, i don't think anyone would have supported it. That 14k crore are certainly not worth it. If there is any effort going on to withdraw it, i would certainly support it. Its just that 2 bads can't make a good.
You mentioned IAS get OROP automatically. For my knowledge, does their pension review happen once in a decade or once every 5 years (like yours now)? If the answer is 'decade' then don't you think you all have been somewhat compensated for the above disparity (wrt NFU)?
Also, don't you agree with Jaitely's comments that your demand of yearly review will cause logistics issue & irrational (as it doesn't happen anywhere). I certainly agree with that. You need to show some flexibility sir!

Good news on that count. 7th CPC's both members have recommended deletion of NFU in it's recommendations for IAS Officers. It is a fair one.

All those in the highest grade automatically get OROP as per 6th CPC award. These are the secrataries in the Govt & a few in the Army (Army Cdrs & Chief), By virtue of NFU all IAS officers were getting to that scale & become eligible for OROP as a result.

No. I do not agree with Jaitly's arguments. Before 1973 it was being done manually. Now with the kind of data processing available this can be done very easily. Jaitly has got a grudge on veterans because they worked for their colleague Capt Amarinder Singh in Lok Sabha elections for Amritsar seat and defeated Jaitly. As a result he is the only non elected cabinet minister, a very senior one at that.

Cmon sir, I don't agree with that comment on Jaitely. I track Punjab politics very closely. I am a fan of Captain but I don't think jaitely carries any person agenda due to his loss.
If you just go by the logic, if others don't get yearly review, why should 1 category get it? The only answer I get is, it used to be done before 1973. That doesn't set a precedence (legally). There need to be some better reasoning. By this logic, IAS can also complain about discontinuance of NFU. They can also say it used to be done before so why not now.
I have tried to read 7th pay commission in detail. I agree that some of the disparities have been tried to be removed..

Well. Perceptions differ. You are entitled to yours. We the veterans are of the view that I had stated earlier. There are reasons. He is the only one opposing the OROP. RM had cleared it. The previous UPA Govt had cleared it. The UPA FM Chidambaram has stated, even after the agitation had started, that there never was and is a problem of funds. Last FY there was more than 40 thousand crores unutilised fund in the defence budget allocation. So it is every year.

You seem to be forgetting facts that I had stated earlier. OROP is a dispensation given for (1) early retirement unlike other services. Other ranks retire after 15 years service which progressively increases to 24 if he attains his highest rank i.e., SM. That means age of retirement is from 33 to 45. At this age bracket they cannot look for another job. All other services incl BSF & other police forces retire at 58 years. Officers start retiring at 48 Yrs (Maj) and go till 54 (Col). Only Generals go upto full retirement age i.e., 58 Yrs. (2) Life risk is the highest. If you analyse the battle casualty figures of all wars starting from 1948 you would see max casualties occur in Sepoy & young officers ranks. Their widows get 60% of the pension entitled to the rank held by her husband at the time of death. For illustration - a sepoy who was martyred in 1971 war was getting a pay of less than Rs.1000. 50% of the pay is pension. Family pension is 60% of pension. Imagine how much that widow would be getting in her old age now. Can she make her ends meet? OROP means corresponding increase in pension to today's pay of a Sepoy.

The above conditions are peculiar to the armed forces. That is why OROP was given to the armed forces alone.

Your statement that it doesn't get precedence legally is wrong. It has already got legal approval from the Apex Court of the Country in it's judgement in 2008. In July this year the Honb'le Supreme Court had given 6 weeks time for implementation, failing which, it had stated that the contempt of court petition, on which the court had laid the time limit, will be heard. That is why Govt had made the truncated OROP announcement on 05 Sep, before the expiry of that deadline. Now that the OROP is not meeting the definition approved by the Honb'le Court, now, after receiving the Govt Notification on 07 Nov, the veterans are petitioning the Supreme Court for action in the issue.

NFU was obtained by civil services in 6th CPC in 2006. OROP has been in existance ever since independence. When contested in Court, whether NFU will be able to stand the scrutiny of law and natural justice is any body's guess.

7th CPC is another Mahabharat. There are quite a few anamolies which have been listed after scrutiny. These are also being included in the petition. In any case, Supreme Court had already commented in it's OROP judgement about the lack of Redressal of Grievance channels for the veterans. Without an Armed Forces/veteran Representative, the Commission could not have realistically appraised the service conditions and anamolies already existing in their pay & pension structure.

They are allowed to serve for maximum length of service up to the age of
60 years whereas the armed forces are not. After completing of 15 years
of service they are not sure how many years they can do more?? Can any
one give this guarantee to armed forces. Every one should understand the
issue before commenting on the pride of nation.

Down with Greedy vets!!
How are these greedy veterans different from lakhs of paramilitary forces, police & teachers who are providing equally important services to the country?
There is a limit to the greed. Govt should immediately stop the recently annouced OROP as these thankless vets don't appreciate it anyways so why to put additonal load of 8000 crores on the country?
Compare the benefits of these vets with other countries & they will realize they are already being given lots of benefits including subsidized ration, education for kids, servants etc. & 90% of them remain in peaceful areas all their life...

Hi Randeepmangat,
I am not sure,where did you get your data from on- "90% of them remaining in peaceful area for all their life" and comparing them with other countries. This is incorrect information.
Also, there is nothing greedy about the Vets. They are asking for something that promised to them by the Parliament. It is based on Koshyari Committee report (a multi party committee - with no defence representation).
I will urge you to look at the authentic first hand information. I can help you connect with the people, who can share hard facts with you.
It is easy to get swayed by biased opinions. Military is our last line of defence, treat it with cautious approach.

Hi Aditya,
I understand the facts given by you & assume them to be correct. But we have to look at the rational of the demand also.
May be the circumstances under which that committee gave the verdict were different from now. I am giving an unbiased opinion. You have to look at both sides. Does India have enough money to dole out tremendous sops on retirees when there are vast majority of people living below poverty line & there are huge expectations from all sections of society for development, education, helathcare, infrastructure & what not?
Army officers are well educated, practical, smart & logical people. Thats why i am shocked at this selfish demand with NO flexibility. Sorry to say but it's a shame..
Please put yourself into Mr. Jaitely's shoes. How can you think of doing the balancing act when you have everyone going onto fast until death for their demands?
I live in USA & one good thing we have seen here is that head rules over heart. No emotional demands here. Vets here gets peanuts (comparatively) but they join army for the pride & passion to serve their country. There are demands here also for betterment of vets benefits but i don't see any emotional blackmailing.
I am sorry if you don't like anything i wrote but i am a straight shooter..

Regards

If India doesn't have 'enough money to dole out to' legitimate, Parliament and Supreme Court approved dues, how is it that it had doled out more than 50 thousand crores in sops to corporate sector, an almost equal amount to write off bad debts of banks, multi crore dole outs to foreign countries when PM visits them? Either Govt should honor what has been passed by Parliament and ordered by Supreme Court or should accept the fact that they are willingly dishonoring two of the three pillars of democracy.

Sir, hate to say it but all sops you mentioned are critical to the development of the country but pension benefits are one way road with no returns.. (Except farmer debt waive off which was necessitated by the string of farmer suicides & was required).
As i mentioned above, if you look in front of your nose, you'll find many flaws & grudges but being a PM you have look at the bigger picture & whole strata of society (FYI i am not a BJP supporter).

Sorry. I, like many others in India, am not in agreement with you on sops given to corporate sector, or write offs of unpaid loans of industrialists ( not of farmer loan write offs - which we feel are inadequate for farmers ). Both these amount to more than a lakh of crores, compared to farmer write offs which is less than Rs.10 thousand crores, that too mainly from state govts. Whether you are a BJP supporter or not, your view is flawed. There are many good things that the present Govt is doing which the previous two UPA Govts failed to do. But in some matters they are wrong and adamant not to see reason, because they are being forced to do so by bureaucrats & some very senior minister who has an axe to grind against the veterans. Till date they stubbornly refuse to talk to the veterans, despite repeated requests. Aren't we in a democratic country?

If you say pension benefits are one way road with no returns, the argument for entire defence expenditure is the same. But, then, can you afford to neglect it at the expense of country's security? You are talking with prefixed ideas with out listening to reason. In any case, I think I have already mentioned it - the Supreme Court has termed pension as 'delayed wages for services already rendered'. You mean to say that the Honb'le Court has stated this with out giving thought to arguments like yours?