Scott, this is why the rich appear out of touch. The cost of living to my family of 4 is 2,300 per month with lots of luxury. 3100 sq ft house on 3 beautiful acres in the awesome Ozarks. My 23 year old daughter in a university town has a budget of $850. All my welfare clients live on less than $800 per month. The city you dream of already exists in most of the Nation.

Same here. Southeastern Ohio. I make 50-60K, have a family of 8 (6 kids), and live very comfortably on 3 acres and a 2100 sf house. Am I rich? No, but I save about 12% of my income every year for retirement.

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Excellent idea. If everyone got paid by the Internet that WOULD keep the cost of living low!

The $2000 was to make you think past the sale and discuss the cost of cheap living rather than the initial statement ("American society has no way to take care of all the under-employed, unemployed, and retired people of tomorrow").

So we've already given up on them. We're just discussing whether their ghettos will cost $1000 or $2000 per person, not whether they can be brought back into society.

Which of course is a recipe for disaster. When a society openly says "I don't care about those people", in our case people with no work or people working in jobs paying below-living wages, then those people tend to flock around anyone who offers a drastic solution, or flock around the most socialist candidate (hoping he will apply equality towards the bottom).

And this is how Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders got all their votes... Not because of magic persuasion skills.

The nettle that needs grasped at the root is universal suffrage, and people who are net recipients of State largesse being given a say in how hard to squeeze their benefactors.

so you'd prefer that only opressors were given a say in how hard to opress? but wait, until the 18th century, this was the rule. So it has already been tested, how did it work out?

Do poor people vote?

If you take them away their EBTs, they will vote. This is what the elites of the USA don't understand. A strong independent-from-the-government middle class provides legitimacy to the elites. No incentive to vote for socialism when you are in the top 5% of income from a world-wide perspective. A low-middle class will switch to Bernie Sanders once the government handouts are reduced. Or whoever else promises socialist paradises. And as the case of Sanders, Chavez and Tsipras has showed, the elites can't always choose the chief socialist.

Yes.

Or we accept that in future with automation for most human jobs around there will not be a job for everyone and it will be impossible to create one. Accept that having a job will not be what defines people in the future to the level it does now.

Do you fucking realize that 99% of the work done 200 years ago is now automated, and yet we still have jobs? When something gets automated, the cost of labor goes down, when the cost of labor goes down, new jobs are economically viable. Blaming automation for our current economic state is popular online these days but horribly disingenuous.
Also, consider this - as an average worker, I own the capacity to do last decade's supercomputing on my home PC. I own the capacity to do industrial level printing of 30 years ago on my home laser printer. I have more capital (productive assets) than 1000 average people did in the 50s.
What do you think is going to happen when robots that can do basically anything become as cheap as cars? All of a sudden only rich people will buy them and poor people won't? We'll all of a sudden be poor sods who forgot how to buy consumer products?
Fuck no, we'll all be robot overlords with custom built homes, 3d printers and auto gardens and stoves that cook our food for us.

Do you fucking realize that 99% of the work done 200 years ago is now automated, and yet we still have jobs?

Nonsense. A third of all Americans 16 years and older are neither working, in school, nor in the military, whereas 200 years ago virtually all children performed useful labor on farms, and most adults never lived long enough to reach what we now consider to be retirement age.

The number of jobless will continue to grow because people with IQs below 100 are in effect outdated farm equipment, and increasingly those with IQs below 120 are becoming outdated industrial equipment.

Protip: Adding the word "fucking" does not make a comment more intelligent.

Do you realize that 99% of the work done by horses is now done by machines. There are no new jobs for horses today! Sure some... but you basically see rather few horses are actually being used for transportation or plowing.
The promise of new jobs for everyone who loeses it, is based on the experience we did with the automation of muscle work.
What we now get is something different. Computers are now entering into an area where we automate brain-work. i.e. Articles being written for newspapers, deciscions a doctors does for patients, driving cars..

While we earlier replaced the lost jobs from muscle-work with jobs in brain-work, there is no new thing we can get people into. There is no 100 million Jobs in Arts (which is kind of brain-work anyway).
I don't think we will loose all jobs to computers any time soon, but the promise that there will be new jobs is an argument stemming from a bad analogy and can not be proven.

I say we have to accept in the future that there may not be enough jobs for all humans... and because production of food is automatized we may anyway have no problems in feeding those without job and provide them with cars... But we have to find ways to do so in a fair manner.

The jobless could be processed for food? Let's be practical/economical.

Because that works.

Soylent Green for altruistic service :)

Soilent Green

There are some people proposing a unconditional basic income. A sort of automation divident for any person.
The benefit of this would be that it will safe capitalism. We can still let money decide and make improvements for society. Otherwise if more than 30 or 40% of the population becomes workless, while they need feeding and clothing from some charity organization, this would basically mean for them living outside of capitalism and in a managed economy. I would prefer the practical/economial way!

I think the decentralization of basic needs would help.
Ownership of housing is probably the biggest problem.
All land is owned or managed by some one.
And the sign says; you aint supposed to be here.

Switzerland has afaik high tax on ownership of houses. This allows them to bring down the revenue generated by wealth and limit that problem somewhat.

Slightly different... But close .. Switzerland is deciding in 2 Months if they want to introduce basic income.

I don't know if it is natural fo a dictatorship to arise from such a state. If you look at Germany dictatorship there was possible due to the economic problems of the time. If people have no work and to little to eat and someone can convince them it is the fault of group x.

About effecting more:
Because the former automation was in muscle. Most muscle work is gone nowadays. Most jobs are in brainwork and service is mostly brainwork. I guess automation will hit modern economy even harder.
We will have to deal with millions of workless people in 5 years... Simply for self driving cars, busses and Taxi services.

Dangers I see:
- we stick to pure capitalism despite with work gone this no longer reflects a working system. (If capital is handed down generations and there is no longer much chance
to achieve new capital... nobody can become rich anymore, and anyway
society could treat anyone like he is rich simply for the automation
might allow it -> seems to me capitalism would no longer be working if there are no jobs)

- We try the basic income, and it fails in some (un)foreseen way (too many people being like these gnappies, ...) or doesn't lead to better wealth in society...

I am looking forward to this ... it is after all something I plan to see in my lifetime.

The cost of labor going down is limited by minimum wage insanities - as minimum wages go up, the only way for the labor to remain cheap is to have inflation push the real value of money down.
Pushing the real value of money down, means more of it will be required for monthly expenses.
If you want to live on a smaller number of dollars for a similar life, you need to make the dollars more valuable. (One way to do this is to reduce the cost of energy. The drop in oil prices was only starting to help a bit, as the reduced costs had not worked their way through a competitive marketplace. Even so, they were reducing cost of production of food, transport of that food to local stores, etc.)

"having a job will not be what defines people in the future"
I thought of that too.

No, but when you force some part of the population to live away from the rest, you are creating a ghetto.

Alternatively, sometimes when you force some part of the population to live away from the rest you are preventing your neighborhood from becoming a ghetto. If you don't believe me, allow a bunch of Romany to move to your town and let me know what happens.

I agree with you completely.
My point was that one definition of a ghetto is a district where some group of people are forced to live. It wasn't a judgment of the wisdom of that.

Yep, you beat me to it. East Lansing, Michigan, home to one of the largest universities in the U.S. We live very well - including two nice vacations per year - on about $2,500/month. That allows us to save about 60% of our income per year for retirement, which will be very soon.

Simply moving into the city, close to where you work, and not driving SUV's can cut your cost of living down by $10-$20k per year. Hell, I don't even need my car, really.

I work 30 hours per week, leaving the rest of my time to be a parent, or exercise, or leisure, or attending guest lectures at the university. The future has already arrived.

You're a Mustachian hero!

Rory, Rodney and Bob.
I truly envy you guys. I'm busting my chops trying to scrape together another 1k a month for eventual day care expenditure for 1 single child. And you guys are making it with a total of 2300.
Live is indeed unfair.

There's no legitimate reason for paying $1k for child care any more than you need to be buying cable TV and bottled water. $1k child care is a huge luxury.

But with the modern western woman being a Disney Princess who absolutely doesn't want a single hardship in her life, including taking care of her own child, I am not surprised child care is considered a necessity instead of luxury. What surprises me is men agreeing to have a child with such women, instead of being men and saying "no children unless YOU grow up first"

Wow. So its "get back in the kitchen!" How about you stay home with the kids for awhile instead?

If I wanted to have kids, I would stay home with the children. But if the woman wants to have kids, she should. And most women don't even want to share the burden equally, when they hear that they immediately jump to "but we can afford child care!"

Unfortunately that's how much it costs here in the Netherlands.

Sounds good as long as nobody gets divorced1

where the hell do you work?

Wow, I knew SUV's were for stoopid people (can't do math or physics or, apparently, spell), but didn't know they were THAT expensive to drive. I feel a lot better about splurging on a sports car, that costs 1/4 - 1/8 of that. And I drive to work every day: 14mi each way.

Or you can pay cash for a good old F150 and pat your wallet lovingly.

The truck is terrible for simply driving, but it's great if you constantly need to haul stuff. Electricians, for instance, need to haul a ladder, standard hand tools, several power tools, many rolls of wire, boxes of electrical install boxes, plugs, switches, etc., other electrical fixtures such as lights, in-ceiling speakers, etc. If it were just the tools, a car would be just fine, but all the other stuff doesn't fit.

A fat wallet makes a wonderful cushion for that rough ride.

i just had to buy that 3rd tesla

the one w/ the Lotus body

Motorcycling is even better & less expensive, if you live in the southern latitudes.

You may come to regret persuading thousands of people to join you there.

Moist robots are not that easily persuaded. You can show them the light and they still ignore it. (see Trump haters for reference)

You misspelled "Trump supporters".