Or Leavenworth. They can give seminars to the other cons about perjury and the cost of breaking various federal laws.

Ya mean there's a cost for breaking federal laws? How come we have yet to see anyone pay that cost?

Because public sector unions, which are an abomination and a fraud against all citizens, make it nearly impossible to fire or even punish a federal employee unless you can prove beyond doubt that they actually intended to break federal laws (e.g., not just that they did break the law, but that they planned and meant to do so). That's why you see all these absurd excuses and convoluted explanations for how what happened wasn't intentional or wasn't actually their fault, etc..

You obviously have no clue how the unions that represent middle class taxpaying Feds work.

Really. Then why didn't you state how I'm wrong, instead of just throwing out a totally unsupported claim?

They haven't even fired the 5 State Department employees that the Obama Admin lied about firing over Benghazi - they're all still drawing their regular paychecks.
Congress Wants Answers on State Department Employees Supposedly Fired Over Benghazi
http://www.usnews.com/news/...

The very idea of public sector unions is grossly flawed.
The Case Against Public Sector Unions
http://www.outsidethebeltwa...

I like your reply-and the supportive information-don't waste your time replying to folks like the above-they are what is refereed to as low information voters- I like your style, Rational

Nice try, but no cookie. The original comment I replied to was talking about ANYONE, not Senior Executive Service or Appointees specifically, and I stated federal employees - the vast majority of which aren't SES or appointees either. You are probably right that the Benghazi workers aren't union, I'll give you that although I don't know their exact designations - but the simple fact is that federal laws make it nearly impossible to fire incompetent workers, including those in top positions. Appointees can of course be canned at will by the president - but Obama shows zero inclination to get rid of screw-ups - on the contrary, he seems to like them and if anything, promote them. For another example of the problems firing those Benghazi federal workers, see WaPo: Has anyone been ‘fired’ because of the Benghazi attacks?
http://www.washingtonpost.c...

Federal employees all the way through GS15 are unionized, and that level is paid over $100,000 a year and has a lot of supervisor and manager type positions in it. It's never reasonable to have public service sector unions - read the link I already provided about why it's completely different for civil servants vs. private sector employees to be unionized. Those unions manage to do far more than just ensure the Fed lives up to Fed. employment laws.

And if you don't think CS unions didn't have a lot to do with developing and forcing those absurdly difficult firing laws into the system, think again.

As to CS laws protecting civil servants from being fired, clearly they've gone vastly overboard. It's absurd when people in the private sector are fired five times more often than those in the public sector, and when it takes a year and multiple appeals processes to manage to fire an incompetent civil servant.

Trying to claim that's to protect them from being capriciously fired by appointees is absurd - that MIGHT apply to the very top level public servant, but appointees generally can't fire civil servants anyhow.

As to "heck of a job Brownie" - typical liberal who ignores the fact that when Bush said that, the levees hadn't given way yet and things seemed fine, and the problems came when the levees collapsed and then Gov. Blanco refused to officially request federal aid - which meant it was illegal for FEMA to act until she finally did so. I don't recall enough about Mieirs, but as to Gonzolas & Rove, that's a matter of opinion with a clearly partisan divide. Not clearly incompetent or grossly inappropriate people such as Van Jones, Anita Dunn, the EPA director who used an alias for email to hide official business, Chu for Sect. of Energy who several weeks AFTER he was in the position said that dealing with OPEC was "not in my domain." Kevin Jennings, Mark Lloyd, etc., etc.

Not sure what you mean by "from whose decisions we're still suffering" but suspect you're trying to blame the recession on Bush. If so, that's utterly bogus - the roots of the recession and primarily blame lay with Democrats, not Bush.

As to embassy attacks during Bush's terms - gee, tell me which occurred on the anniversary of 9/11, for which Bush failed to take any precautionary measures, our staff were killed and he failed to send support, all at facilities which didn't meet the minimum required State Department standards for security, and where there had been multiple requests for increased security all declined and security reduced instead, even though there had been escalating attacks for the previous 6 months at those same facilities, etc? Oh, gee, that's right, none.

In other words, there's more than ample reason for a different response - all of the circumstances were grossly different, with Obama and Hillary grossly negligent (or worse) - and then they outright LIED about it for weeks to the American public and the world, further harming the security situation and international relations. Tell me when Bush ever lied about any attacks on our embassies? Oh, again, that's right, he never did.

You liberals have a twisted sense of right and wrong, and what is or isn't worth being upset about. More like you've got a gross set of double standards, a penchant for sound bites regardless of facts, and no shame over being blatantly partisan regardless.

Is Promoted the same as fired? I never thought so, but Obama thinks that way. Promote every screwupee

I think it's obvious exactly how they "work".

There's a distinct difference between the way federal employee unions work for the rank & file workers (GS, WG, WS,GM,etc.) and the way top appointed federal officials are treated - both in salaries and in disciplinary matters.

I retired 3 years ago after 40+ years in federal civil service, having started at the GS5 level and ending with a high grade of GS11. For most of that time I was a member of the American Federation of Government Employees (AFGE), including while I worked at supervisory level for three DOD components.

I can say from experience that AFGE (and the 2-3 other fed employee unions) don't have either the inclination or the power to protect fed employees from the consequences of wrongdoing. There was a time (MANY years ago) when these unions played a major role in employee-management issues. Not so during the last 20-30 years.

These unions (1) have no power to negotiate employee salaries or benefits, and (2) can only act as advisors to management boards - no voting rights! The most valuable returns for one's dues are union social activities, like group picnics, Christmas parties, etc., access to dental insurance (not provided by federal health insurance coverage), and referral to a lawyer (employee paid) if a member needs one to resolve serious issues.

Federal worker unions can't strike - it's a violation of federal law. In disciplinary matters, they can only stand with the employee and witness that punishment imposed is within legally parameters.

There are grade levels and employee classification systems beyond those mentioned above. "Excepted Service" gives employees absolutely no protection for their career tenure - they can be hired today at GS5, promoted tomorrow to GM13, demoted the next day to WG3, and fired the next, all without any notice or justification. The only benefit is that a highly qualified person can make higher pay grades quickly, without time in service requirements. From what I know, AFGE or the other fed unions can't help these folks AT ALL!

Beyond that, I believe (don't know for sure) that there are "Executive Service" levels that include Congress, the President, and high level appointed officials in major federal agencies. As far as I know, the only protection these folks have is "political patronage" - which means as long as they're loyal to the official who appoints them, they "can do no wrong" - UNLESS they get sacrificed to a "higher cause" as has happened to several such folks in recent times. More often, they get removed from a job in which they were the focus of controversy and "kicked upstairs" into even higher-paid jobs.

Despite Rational's statements, he just doesn't have all the facts. The people/incidents he cites involve appointed people at extremely high levels working in political jobs. I don't know if they have access to unions, and I seriously doubt it, but the crooks among them are protected politically by the even worse crooks who appoint and use them to benefit their political agendas.

There's a huge difference between federal employee unions and public service unions at state & local level. The latter are wired in to major labor unions with lots of money and lots of power - as we in Wisconsin have learned over the past three years. These guys are fighting tooth & nail against state legislative efforts to reduce their power, save taxpayer money, and allow the respective states to have more control over their own employees.

OK - I've provided, from personal experience and knowledge from over 40 years of federal service, to the best of my ability, why Rational is wrong. He can refute my statements if he wishes, but he can't refute (or ignore) direct knowledge gained over more than 40 years.

wake up, they vote for and elect the crooks who will give them the raises and benefits. The ones that have no say is the taxpayer footing the bill.

At least now they are running out of other peoples money.

I started with EPA's Emergency Response Branch as a GS 12 and finished after a few years as a GS 13. I was NOT a member of any union. Neither (even though I had to make decisions on my own tha had far reaching effects on human life ad health during an emergency such as a cheical spill, explosion, train acident or oil spill) I weas not entitled even to legal representation by EPA.
No union protected me and I don't think that any union should protect any other GS employee.

Jackson is a leftist liar like the rest of her agency's ilk. That makes her a role model in this administration. Another abuse of power candidate...

Teddi, she is now working for Apple. Problem solved for Apple and the administration. Cheap solution for Apple. And a respite for DC......it wouldn't work in their favor for the public to question why Congress is whining about the tax codes they are responsible for.

Will Apple still pay her while she is in prison ?

The damage she did at the EPA in targeting anything and everything that didn't agree with the "green" agenda is much worse than what the IRS has done...

Prosecute her and then tar and feather her and drag her through the oil and gas fields so all can get a look at a true anti-American eco-freak socialist !

Not sure whether there are enough birds or tar to cover the entire cast of criminals.

If you just use the feathers from the birds that get killed by the wind turbines, you'll probably have enough. You might have a point on the tar since the EPA has essentially killed petro drilling....

I'll go for that sentence. And further hook her up by her nipple piercings .

In case you did not notice, Ms. Jackson is a Negro. No fat, angry, Negro woman is going to be treated as you suggest she be treated, although I surely agree she deserves to be. You know that, but I guess your "Hope and Change" got a little ahead of your reality.

I'm sorry, I guess you don't like fresh air to breathe and clean water to drink.

That's a bullsh*t answer - we passed that a long time ago. Its all about control and turning the screws on American businesses and capitalism, which BTW pay for your salary.

Just like you want all children to be killed in their mother's wombs.

Which we would have if the epa didn't mandate dirty power plants. The air is much cleaner where they can't interfere with companies improving air quality.

Is that really the best you have-- do you even take the time to read anything about what it is you like to post about.....can't teach stupid..can you.

I'm not sure how you think one excludes the other! Everyone wants fresh air and clean water. What has been written here that makes you think anyone commenting thinks otherwise? What makes you think the administrative actions of this women in anyway precludes us from having fresh air and clean water. She's a crook in her own right, and does nothing to guarantee what we all want. ♠

Till the Ohio river caught on fire..........

Good another energy source to run our cars on, water.

The Exxon Valdiz was a deliberate act on the part of Exxon.
Prince Edward Sound was a protected area with many endangered species, thus required Exxon to conduct their operations under much more stringent guidelines than would be required without the presence of these animals.
By totally destroying the environment, and thus the endangered species, Exxon was no longer operating in an endangered species habitat (since they were no longer there due to the pollution) so their operating expenses dropped by about 30%.
This drop in operating expenses amounted to several billion dollars per year so the money they paid to the captian of the Valdiz in order to have hin deliberately run his vessel aground was a pittance to what the save now.

I assume that you have read all of the official and unofficial reports on this incident as I have.
I was working for the EPA's Emergency Response Team at that time. We were carrying out joint operations with the US Coast Guard which has jurisdiction over all tidal waters. I actually know what was going on because I was there. Were you?

Do some actual research if you can read before you embarrass yourself further.

Don't forget Milwaukee's water supply poisoning a third of the city.

Now you know why Apple's stock is tanking...

Most companies are in the world class mafia cartel of oligoplies that are attempting to install their one world power. Apple falls outside this element, unlike microsoft and must be destroyed, because they are of christian origin. unfortunately they choose to sell stock on the federal reserves NYSE, and are subject to arbitrary prices, moles in the company, etc etc etc

I would put them in the same corner as IBM, at the ready to obsolete virtually all current internet networking groups political and so-called social.

Were we not run by criminality the IBM cell phone hooked up the Watson racks of mainframes woud begin the data bases required to eliminate criminality in government, while disabling malpractice, wrongful incarceration, theft by the fed, the end of predatory law.

The beginning of individual educational programs leading to an exponential elevating in our magnitudes of literacy, the end of concealed nobility.

Will it happen ?

not under obamaland

Not everyone at EPA (or the Federal government) are leftist libs----

Name three.

I was one. (conservative) that worked in EPA's Emergency Response Branch. We responded to things like oil spills, train derailments, chemical fires and explosions, etc.
But that was back in Regan's time. Now I don't know what the makeup of that group is.

Myself for one, my boss for another, and our director. That's three.

I don't hear any of you opposing the agenda of the regime. SO therefore you are of no use to me.

Uh huh. Sure...and I'm Superman. But if true, you should get back to work, as my tax dollars are helping to pay your salary/wages. I don't feel I'm getting my moneys' worth either...

Go back to your cubicle and screw off until its time to go home from your BS government job !

you are right- last count it was 84%

True, but the nut setting the policy and attacking companies are.

Actually, they are.

or a shallow grave