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Hoping Former Mars Hill Elder will comment on this: http://www.patheos.com/blog...
I know many here appreciate FMHE's insights and info. about M.H. There has been so much opacity and deceit from them that little glimpses of light are incredibly valuable. And, I appreciate your being responsible in not showing partiality but inviting opportunity for both sides of the story to have a voice. Warren, thanks for being impartial in the "dig" for the facts.
Does anyone know what Matt Rogers is doing at Mars Hill? Since Mark's resignation he has gone silent. It seems he has been replaced by Dave Bruskas when it comes to major announcements now.
Dave Bruskas says...
In other news.....there was an unusual heavy volume of traffic I-5 south causing a jam in Olympia this morning
"When the truth is replaced by silence, silence is a lie."
I appreciate the sentiment, but consider Matthew 16:20 and Mark 8:30
http://www.gty.org/blog/B14..."When Silence is Sinful" - John MacArthur
"Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come to the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed..." John 3:20
"O Lord our God, we confess the cowardice that has so often silenced us in the face of evil...by your Spirit, make us bold in declaring God's justice in all the reaches of our lives."Cornelius Plantinga, Jr.
Paul writes: "But having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, therefore I have spoken; we also believe, and therefore we speak." 2 Corinthians 4:8,9 and 13
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke
There's a massive difference here, how can you even compare this and keep a straight face? Assuming you're not just funning us, what a bizarre and nigh blasphemous use of Scripture.
Jesus had good reasons to protect His own plans which are by definition good and ethical, a premature revelation of His Messiah status would have apparently thwarted those.
However, when we're talking about cover-ups of unethical activities, Luke 12:3 and Matthew 10:27 would be applicable, without a single doubt.
This is called the Messianic secret, and Jesus wanted it kept so that He would be understood not only as the miracle worker and good teacher, but as the one who suffered, died, and rose from the dead. He kept the secret until the picture was complete so people would know that He was more than a "good teacher" and that the life in Christ involves a Cross...and new life.
It wasn't a secret kept to hide darkness.
Great insight, here. I learned about the "Messianic secret" from a wonderful seminary professor who taught my Gospels class. Your summary here is spot on!
Taken in context I cannot imagine that those verses in any way apply to the current situation. Jesus commanded his disciples to temporarily hide the truth of his messianic identity so that he could accomplish his mission. It was to be revealed at the proper time, and it was part of God's purposes and plan.
Here we are talking about hiding sin so as to protect certain interests, like those who committed the sin, the organization, etc.
If you seriously mean to proffer these verses as justification for silence in the current situation (and I don't know if you are), it is an example of poor handling of Scripture.
Volunteers? I think all the hands just went up on that pile of dead bodies strewn behind the MH bus. 'Dem bones gonna rise again ..... with white robes and a banner that reads "we tried to warn you" -- and maybe even packing a few loaded flash drives.
At a volunteer meeting one of our first red flags was a pastor telling us not to send anything in an email because they can always come back to get you. (and we were like what kind of emails is this guy writing) The churches use "the City" to communicate with volunteers/members. You can be deleted and lose access to your years of email immediately.
not helpful, deleted
You have a point. There is a tendency that I have likewise seen to assume you are right, unless stopped. When I suggested to the pastor of a church that we discuss some things with all the Deacons and Elders (of which I was one) he instantly grew white as a sheet. Amazing what a little light will do in these situations.
Big Edit: My above example was in an elder-led, congregational polity. Makes a big difference--we all understood that if the elders could not agree, we took the logical next steps until it finally went to the church. The biblical model has to give the body the final say if it cannot be worked out otherwise. The absence of this at MH contributed to the mess as MH is/was King-ruled, with no accountability or transparency.
This experience will be an education in the beauty of biblical obedience vs the biblical application of "... it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." (Matt18:6). Of course this verse relates to causing innocent children to stumble, which is the real crime here-- so many disillusioned , so unnecessary.
If this comes to be, it's tragic, irresponsible, and despicable for MD and ST to have been able to profit from MH but not held accountable for their part in it's demise by walking away. Hopefully the court will have a way to attach their profit purchased assets to recover some of the debt. So sad also that the truth may now only come out through court actions.
Bankruptcy (posted by mars hill elder) is only a rumor at this point, correct? However, this may be the most likely outcome any way.
If it is true, the order of claim usually go like this, IRS > lawyers > payroll related items > Liabilities > A/P etc. In short, IRS will get their share first, then lawyers. Since it is a non-profit, IRS may not be in the equation at all. Payroll is pretty high up there. Maybe that is why the ONE remaining Executive Elder is urging people to donate. The sooner these executive resignations come in, the better odds it will get full distribution. After all, severance package ‘is’ payroll. Then, it will be liability and account payable (i.e. debts, outstanding utilities, etc.). It is uncertain how creditors will go after assets like sound and computer equipment. I can hardly imagine these equipment being reprocessed by the court and their proceeds be distributed to numerous creditors.
Document shredders and computer file erasers are probably working over time now. There will be no more investigation (or final report) of misconducts. All the focus will be shifted to financial and legal. In other words, no executive elders will be held accountable! …and they will get to keep their severance packages!
If Bankruptcy is not a rumor, this is quite a masterful moveby Bruskas. Standing up on stage asking people for money, and promising changes and a new start. At the same time knowing what is coming down the pipe and trying to squeeze the last drop of benefit out of his Shepherd gig in Seattle. Then, he will be hailed as a hero trying to save the sinking ship and resuming his role as lead pastor in Albuquerque. He will be perceived as the last one running out of the burning building. …and we will all live happily ever after.
Heard a few days ago that Mars will likely file for bankruptcy from someone who still goes there and is semi-connected. The tide is turning against Bruskas though.
Does anyone know whether the LP's, deacons, and staff would qualify for unemployment or does their having severance packages replace that?
Churches can opt out of unemployment insurance for their employees who are laid off. MHC opted out. No employment payments.
wow. this whole thing makes me more and more speechless.
which makes a keyboard pretty useful ;)
Ha Carl, thank you for that. I needed to laugh.
I have zero clue as to what chapter of bankruptcy MH, if true, would fall under. Regardless, how I understand and remember from long ago, severance packages are not looked kindly upon by the Federal judge. This is a pretty good article. The judge has to decide just how much stealing has been done prior to bankruptcy and how enriched the people receiving the severance has already been enriched. That would not bode well for those EEs
I would believe Chapter 7 - liquidation. I do not believe a chapter 11 reorganization would be manageable (it is a lot of work each month). Also relying on donations as the revenue stream would be problematic - to use Mars Hill terminology - the number of giving units is decreasing and a there is also a decrease in the amount each giving unit
Agree. Everything is so collaterilzed to spin off the campuses as separate churches ... someone has to come up with a big check for each of the remaining buildings. I believe the lampstand has been removed, so I'll pray for the people there. Not Mark Driscoll Ministries. He ran away following his good buddy Sutton. Ugh.
Amen. 1 Cor. 12:26
Will federal judges willing to look at small "dollar amount" like this? I am just not sure...especially when this involves church.
Yes, a Federal bankruptcy judge, and bankruptcy only happens in Federal courts, look at everything. For individuals, they will order a garage sale. You can actually watch the court in action downtown ... it's interesting -- the judges seem to be a bit OCD about the pennies.
But then everyone that donates given that could then become a creditor and rightfully claim fraud.
One statement in the letter that i find particularly troublesome regarding the audit report is :
"Our hope and anticipation is that we will receive a good report. But if that isn’t the case, we will work openly and diligently to correct any problems."
It does not provide much confidence, especially when it is coming from the last remaining EE. If things have been done legally and on the up and up - what should be said is that we are fully confident. From reviewing one of the previous audit reports - the focus is not if they are being good stewards in the biblical sense - but only if they compliant with tax and reporting laws - and there is a big difference.
Correct, large donors can probably sue individually. Other donors can probably join a class action law suit if wants. However, given the relatively small dollar amount involved, lawyers may not want to take on a case like this. Totally agreeing with you....being legal vs being ethical are two different things. ...now being legal vs being godly, that is a whole different level.
It was more a statement of legal standing. To me this goes beyond the need for biblical rebuking. The evidence suggests to me much more than just sin arising from giving in to temptation....."Spiritual leaders" profiteering greatly while admonishing the flock to worship by giving to the church is evil.
If I were a creditor - I would point the ResultSource contract as evidence that the intellectual property developed while Mark was pastor is in fact owned by Mars Hill church not him personally. I do not know how contracts have been set up, but would still argue that.
Yes but they could rule that it was a sham - as in "wait, he gets the profits but the church paid for the marketing?" "he was paid $650,000 per year to recite his intellectual property at the Sunday church service?" And the only reason his intellectual property has any value is because he was pastor at Mars Hill.
It is how I would argue it - don't know that it would "win" but it is a compelling argurment
Former mars hill elder • 15 minutes ago
I heard yesterday that Mars Hill will for sure be filing bankruptcy. Every church will either close their doors or become independent.
Dave is planning on resigning once the transition is complete. Mark will not be receiving his full severance package.
Has the ECFA been notified? Seeing that they pretend to have some teeth but couldn't care less if they've been paid for their seal of approval. And there is no teeth -- TGC let MD run roughshod over the Gospel but he brought hits to their site since they let him sit on their "Council".
Sheesh, if the ECFA actually means what they say they are, Mark, Sutton and Dave, along with the rest of the BOAA should be blacklisted from that organization along with any church they fall (wrongly) into leadership.
That's the plan. They have to do that as soon as they disband the boaa since the ecfa requires an independent 3rd party to set executive compensation.
liquidation or bankruptcy?
"Independent" my ***
How soon are they going to disband the boaa?