Thank you for this very even-handed piece. I understand why feminists would need to focus on women's rights only because trying to do too many things usually means doing them all badly. It may sound like a contradiction, but women and men are both discriminated against in different ways. I wouldn't expect feminists to campaign for men's rights, but I would ask that they stop campaigning against men's rights. For example, in the USA, NOW works tirelessly to make sure women are always granted full custody of children. In India, feminist Chandana ChakraAborty argued that sexual harassment of males should be legal lest men file false accusations. Feminists are a very diverse bunch who have very diverse views. However, unless the feminists who believe men deserve equal rights too speak up, the conversation will be dominated by the most rabid man-haters.

That may be, but if you check the internet lately, you might see that there are countless woman-haters out there...you know, in case you didn't notice.

Anon, you are completely correct. I consider the hatred of women and the hatred of men to be equally morally wrong, though at the present time I consider the hatred of women (misogyny) to be a bigger problem simply because there seems to be more of it going around. In fact, I think feminists, on average, are actually doing a much better job at refraining from animus against the opposite sex than men's rights activists (MRA's) are. I would have hoped that people dissatisfied with feminism would have said, "Hey, we don't like it when women blame everything on men, so let's make sure that we don't blame everything on women." Unfortunately, it feels more like they said, "Hey, we don't like it when women blame everything on men, so let's get even and blame women for everything!" At any rate, you're right, I'm a hypocrite if I decry misandry but tolerate misogyny, and I really hope MRA's realize they are being hypocritical as well.

you are misinformed. misandry is far more commonly "seen" than misogyny( 3-4 times more). People just accept it, where they don't accept misogyny.

You really need to re examine your view of feminists. They are by far the most aggressive group you will encounter.

Where an earth did you get that statistic? 3-4 times more commonly seen?And feminists aren't a group that you can define as aggressive. There are many contradictory definitions of feminism and many different types of people who identify as feminist. Don't tell someone to re-examine their views when you appear to have given your own very little thought.

Feminists aren't a group that you can define as aggressive? Really?

http://youtu.be/nvYyGTmcP80
Explain that then

http://youtu.be/FWgslugtDow
Or that? All men were doing was having a meeting to discuss the issues that effect them, like divorce courts being stacked against them and look at the hostility they get.

Or check out Erin Prizzy
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/w...
She opened one of the first battered women's shelters. When she dared to speak up about her discovery that the women showing up at her shelter were just as violent as men, feminists killed her dog and sent her so many death threats that the police had her mail forwarded to the station so they could check it for explosives.

Feminists aren't violent my ass.

Those people aren't feminists, they're fascists. Or fanatics. Big difference.
Just saying.

Big Red defines herself as a feminist. Be that as it may, saying, "she not a feminist" isn't enough to distance feminism from people who hate.

You must denounce that hatred. You must repudiate their words.

Instead you say, "that's not me."

If I told you that a policeman killed my unarmed 9 year old brother yesterday 100% of normal people would respond, "WTF, that's horrible. I'm so sorry for your loss. The police have no business killing children. It is indefensible!"

You know what people wouldn't say? They wouldn't say, "Well, not all cops are like that."

This may be a true statement but it does not address the issue at hand. It invalidates that issue and it attempts to protect the interests of police even though there may be criminals among them.

When feminists say MAFALT then they are protecting their own interests. What they are not doing is making it clear that hatred is incompatible with feminism or their own particular world view. In fact, repeated MAFALT's make it clear that hatred is a part of feminism; it is compatible with feminism and it is what that particular feminist believes. The only difference is they haven't been caught in the act and want to maintain their privilege until that does happen.

Birds of a feather flock together. You call yourselves feminists just like the bigots do. We have every right to call you bigots too.

Exactly. It wont just go away if you never confront it.

So by your logic, man hating is justified because some men rape. Young get to say notallmen then follow it by denying someone else the courtesy of saying group is not all the same.

first of all, you misunderstand not all men, but I'll explain that in a second
secondly, I didn't choose to be born male, which is unlike feminism, religion, or other ideologies, where identification is voluntary and built around ideals.
to criticize people who choose to use logical fallacies and identify with an ideology, is not the same as demonizing all men for the crimes of sociopaths.
one is criticism of an ideology whose most extreme members are its leadership
the other is blatant bigotry against people based on what genitals they were born with

the reason feminists mock the statement with "notallmen" instead of calling it a "no true Scotsman" fallacy
is because its not a "no true Scotsman" fallacy. the vast majority of men will never commit a sexual assault in their life.
A no true Scotsman fallacy is contingent on the fact that it is fallacious, but while the vast majority of men will never rape, nor do we have any any prominent figures in the "male community" who are calling for rape, the same is not true of feminism's systemic problems with misandry. (systemic not systematic, systemic means an consequence of a system, not an intended part of the system.)

please, show me where "male" leaders, maybe a writer or someone, calls for women to be raped in the same manner that the more extreme people in the feminist community do, and please some me some indication that their ideas are received with the same support and criticism as the feminists who call for oppression of males.

oh wait, you can't do that, because no one is publicly claiming that, especially not any "male leaders" or artists/authors/speakers, and the tiny, tiny percentage who might think that, are sociopaths who are not going to admit it.

on the other hand, a lot of leading feminists authors and academics have called for putting men in internment camps, the mass sterilization of men, an apartheid state where men are treated like prisoners, etc. (just one quick example, Julie Bindel)

a male calling for the rape of females would be a social pariah, they would face nothing but criticism and ridicule.
a feminist calling for atrocities against men on the other hands, is often met with praised and laughter, even in public forums like in academia.

but yeah, show me some instances where a prominent male author calls EXPLICITLY for the rape of women and receives positive reinforcement from others males in the same manner that feminists do when they talk about committing atrocities against males, whether in seriousness or in jest.

men KILL each other over rape, do you feminists kill each other over misandry?
feminism's problems with misandry are with its leaders and the "true believers", so to speak, not with some outcasts who the group would be happy to get rid of.

its like this, to compare to religion for a second, almost every Muslim sect has SOME group of extremists, just like any other large group of any kind
but the only sect that actually promotes extremism and has famous people in it who support violence and insurgency, that's the Hanbali fiqh
now, do ALL Hanbalis hate Shias and other Sunnis? no, most of the people I've met from Saudi are wonderful, but their specific fiqh has a lot of prominent and influential people who do.

on the contrary, if some Ahmadi Muslim (who are known for being peaceful) goes an kills somebody and says a bunch of crazy stuff about religion, I won't blame his sect, because he is the one who is the exception. now, if some Salafi Hanbali goes and kills someone, even if he says its for political reasons, if it looks like it was over identity, I'm going to assume it was over identity, because the LEADERS and PROMINENT FIGURES in the philosophy promote violence and insurgency, even though.

most feminists don't hate men, but FEMINISM has a problem with promoting misandry
most Hanbalis don't hate Shias, but the Hanbali fiqh as a problem with promoting Salafist insurgency
if an Ahmadi Muslim kills someone though, it does not mean the Ahmadiyya have a problem with promoting violence, because their sect does not teach violence, and nothing in their ideals promote it.

lastly, when was the last time feminists ever killed one of their own for violence against men?
because uh, maybe you haven't ever been to jail, but men kill each other for violence against women all the time

Bruh's nickname is "hateful omen" in latin and people are surprised.
As for the examples of vitriolic rhetoric I would say while overblown and not my personal style, there's a big difference between "I should kill you because you won't acknowledge me as an equal" and "i should kill you for wanting to be acknowledged as an equal"
Acting like men don't advocate for rape? Puh-leese. The status quo is already too tolerant of rape. To prosecute a rapist a woman endures demeaning questions about what she was wearing, how much she drank, if she's ever cheated on a boyfriend. People say things like "boys will be boys". Rape doesn't need an advocate. It is already too condoned.
I've looked at some of your other posts. You really think you've got the world figured out eh?
Wisdom is equal parts accuracy and humility.
Listen to others.
You clearly see so many people who are so clearly outraged yet you seem quite determined to dismiss the outpouring of emotion as the product of misguided beings. People like you never assume other people are rational thinking beings who might have actually put some thought into what they've said, even if it's not as articulate as how you would put it.
The reason people mock #notallmen is because it's so insecure and self important. Nobody (reasonable) said all men are misogynists. If you're a good guy, nobody was talking about you.
Every group has a problem with extremism. Society as a group has a problem with Misogyny.

That last argument is weird. We could get into all sorts of discussion about violence as the root of all power and disadvantaged classes and the nature of rebellion vs oppression but I'm just going to stick with the very confused "Sorry that one group refrains from inappropriate brutality?"
"Oh no, they're not killing!" said no reasonable human.
Where is the logical rigor here? I don't know whether you've been to jail, or what you saw there, but there seems to be an assumption there hasn't been or wouldn't be a condemnation of killing in jail...
I would refrain from using that argument in the future. It comes across as very callous. There's no point in proving you're the smartest guy in the room if nobody wants to talk to you afterwords.

#NOTALLFEMINISTS

Oh wait, it is only a bad thing when non-feminists say stuff like that.

Those are what I call faux-feminists. Girls who don't understand feminism who use it as an excuse to get their way and to irrationally yell at people. It's not real feminism, but they've already ruined it for everyone. So many (faux) feminist articles push their agenda with belittlement or blame aimed at men, it's not a surprise people have a negative view of it.

Then articles like this get written blaming men's ignorance for the negative image. smh

This current trend of straight male guilt doesn't help either.

Good luck mansplaining to these women that they're 'faux feminists'. You'll soon get shown the white male cis het privilege card. You clearly don't visit many feminist spaces on the internet if you think this woman is atypical.

Excuse me, but I do not dump shit in the comments section, please speak for yourself.

The fact that this article does nothing but deconstruct the same tired strawman over and over, is a perfect example of why I am not a feminist.

No one thinks that [all] feminists "hate all men", and no, us "antifeminists" don't use that as an argument, but this article, like many others across in the feminist community, they claim we make this argument, just so they can deconstruct a tired and played out straw-man, so they can pretend like they are refuting a point, when in reality they're only refuting what they imagine to be the other side's argument.

But when leading feminists and famous authors like Julie Bindel make no qualms with advocating for an apartheid state for men, or in some extreme cases, genocide even, it is fair to say that FEMINISM as an IDEOLOGY has a problem with bigotry and misandry, that does NOT mean feminists hate all men, it just means that within the feminist community, you have people in positions of influence and power who do hate men, that is irrefutable.

Individual feminists often don't hate men. Thirdwave feminism as a ideology, has a problem with perpetuating hatred against men.

"No TRUE feminist"

"No True Scotsman"

feminism has never been about equality: Gloria Steinem's words

dogiam, that is complete bullshit !.

Below is a link to all of Gloria's quotes & she never, ever said -
" feminism has never been about equality"

http://www.goodreads.com/au...

The only quote that starts like yours is-

“Feminism has never been about getting a job for one woman. It's about
making life more fair for women everywhere. It's not about a piece of
the existing pie; there are too many of us for that. It's about baking a
new pie.”

Stop spreading BS..it doesn't help you or your MRA propaganda, it is so easy to prove that you are a liar !

State your source. Or maybe she shared this with you personally.

Maybe people blame men's ignorance because men are in control of every major media outlet, nearly every political office, and nearly every business in the world?

What happens when all the other feminists are 'faux feminists' and you think you're the only 'real' feminists?

Ah, the "no TRUE scotsman" fallacy

What you just said is the "No true Scotsmen" logical fallacy. Look it up. This is ALL part of feminism.

who are you to parse out what is feminist and what is not? Just as you cannot expect me to cherry pick the lunatic fringe of feminism to make my point that all women/feminists hate men you certainly cannot choose who to eliminate in order to put a good face on the feminist membership as whole...there are women full of hate as much as there are men full of hate: assholes, right?

Well, I think all men should be castrated and put into labor camps and should be forced to go down on women every day...but I'm a men's rights activist....because I said I am one. If I call myself an MRA that makes me one. You don't get to tell me I'm not an MRA just because you don't like my definition of what an MRA is. THE END!

See how stupid you sound?

(btw, no I don't think men should be castrated or put into labor camps or anything like that)

the hashtag for mocking all men based on the crimes of sociopathic rapists and spree killers, is "notallmen", not "notallMRAs".
but it does speak to how big of a problem misandrism is in feminism, by equating everyone who belongs to certain gender, with a TINY group that feminism sees as it's ideological opponent, the Men's Rights activists. like I'm glad you're going to PREJUDGE me based on my genitals.. what was that called again? oh yeah, prejudice. what was this specific type of prejudice called again? prejudging someone based on gender? oh yeah, now I remember, it's called sexism.

also, its funny that you would use castration and labor camps as an example
because prominent feminist authors like Julie Bindel have called for internment camps for men,
and there's another layer of hilarity, because advocating something that would VIOLATE THE RIGHTS OF MEN, would exclude you from being an ADVOCATE for MEN'S RIGHTS.

I know tumblr has told you over and over that you are a special snowflake just by saying you are one, but that is not the case, behavior matters when it comes to identification with an ideology, and I would argue that behavior that is antithetical to the ideology and its ideals, would cause you to exclude yourself from the ideology, which is why I said that no one else has to "tell you" that you aren't.

when someone says "Men's Right Advocate" they are not just using some meaningless label, they are advocating men's rights
but thanks for being a walking demonstration of why the feminist tactic of using buzzwords and redefining language is dangerous
people like you become some far removed from language, meaning, and what that meaning means in reality, that you can say "I'm a Men's Rights advocate" in an analogy, wherein the analogy you are advocating AGAINST the rights of men, without even realizing the blatatn hypocrisy inherent in making such a statement.

Damn, i was looking forward to the going down on women every day part. You are such a tease.

I kid, i kid. Good points. lol

"No True Scotsman"

They are feminists. Ergo you are equating 'fascism' and 'feminism'.

Same difference. Both are born from exclusion and hatred.

So no true Scotsman huh....

give me a break, they call themselves feminists. They are feminists.

I agree with you but I do want to say this because of another a comment I read
if someone says they are an MRA, but then they advocate something that is a blatant violation of men's rights (put all the men in camps!)
then they are not an MRA because they are doing something antithetical to the ideology, which is about advocating for the rights of men

so I'll extend feminists the same favor
I'll gladly exclude anyone who SAYS they are a feminist
but then acts in a way that is either antithetical or incompatible with the values of feminism

but unfortunately, as it currently stands, that would not exclude the misandrists
because right now, feminism and misandry go hand and hand like American corporate capitalism and Latin American dictatorships

just because they see feminism in a different way doesn't make some more feminists than others.

Well, I think all men should be castrated and put into labor camps...but I'm a men's rights activist....because I said I am one. If I call myself an MRA that makes me one. You don't get to tell me I'm not an MRA just because you don't like my definition of what an MRA is. THE END!

See how stupid you sound?

(btw, no I don't think men should be castrated or put into labor camps....except maybe child rapists)

I really don't sound stupid at all, perhaps your view is so twisted that you think I sound stupid. But if you call yourself a feminist and you do and say awful stuff in the name of feminism, along with other feminists, that's on feminism. You are just in denial because 3rd wave feminism has become a sh1thole and you identify yourself as a feminist.

You can't be an MRA if you think that way. There's literally not a single MRA that thinks that way. And still that's a very bad analogy.

yes I've watched this & all I saw was a woman trying to give her view & men constantly talking over the top of her. I found the men came off way worse & explain why the MRA's posted her private address on the internet so other men could harass her. She received death threats from lunatic men because they didn't like her opinion...what a total joke & an over reaction from some men .

All you saw was men talking over her while she screamed "shut the fuck up" at them over and over and over again? You need to get your eyes and ears checked. They were trying talk to her about the issues men face while she told them that men's issues don't matter. She even started to sing "Cry Me a River" when someone had mentioned that their brother had committed suicide after his ex wife had driven him into poverty and taking away his kids.

So men trying to explain their positions to someone that hateful is worse than a woman being that incredibly hateful? If you really think that, your morals are extremely skewed.

And god forbid someone harrass her ONLINE! Oh the horror! After her harassment in person of people who were simply gathering to have a DISCUSSION on their issues. While I disagree with her personal information being posted, her behavior should not be tolerated.

Oh and Big Red there SAYS she's received threats. Death threats are illegal, yet there was no police action. I call B.S. for attention.

she was trying to read a list where feminists agree with how men are
being portrayed in the media,
she was trying to say feminists agree men
shouldn't loose custody of their children,
she was basically agreeing
with a lot of what these men were fighting for.
They never once
stopped talking to listen, they kept up a constant chatter & ignored
everything. The actual message she was trying to deliver was a good one, but these men didn't want to hear anything.

Now if the MRA's want help with anything they need to stop
blaming the wrong people.
Now if I was her I would have given these rude men the list & said when you want to discuss facts give me a call.

I agree yelling "shut the fuck up" helps no one, but really these men were determined to listen to nothing anyway.
The
MRA's don't know who to blame for their problems in life, so everything
wrong in their lives has to be feminism's fault, they listen to no one,
the art of complaining is all they know & they don't seem to know how to solve any problems really.

No, she was reading a list of garbage. All the problems that she wad claiming that feminism was trying to help and was claiming was "patriarchy" WAS CAUSED BY FEMINISM!!!

And again, screaming "SHUT THE FUCK UP! SHUT THE FUCK UP!" and singing "cry me a river" when someone mentioned suicide if a loved one is NOT A POSITIVE MESSAGE! What the hell is wrong with you? She wasn't there to help anyone, she was there to say "your opinion doesn't matter, you don't need to stand up for your rights, feminism does it for you, your problems are because "patriarchy". And again, who's screaming and who's calmly stating their positions. The men are being rude for not listening my ass.

Frankly, maybe men are tired of being told that men's lived experiences don't matter, we don't know what we're talking about when it comes to our own issues and that feminism will take care of it. Men have been waiting for decades for feminists to fix men's issues, yet all we see is feminism lobbying to make them worse. Feminism telling us we don't have any problems.

And you want to talk facts? How about the fact that feminism has outright lied on just about every issue it's claimed?

http://antimisandry.com/fem...

That's a collection of reports from government departments, Universities, highly respected institutions and more PH.D's than I can count on my hands disproving feminism.

Yet every study done in the last 10 years (and quite a few even earlier than that) has proven what MRA's have been saying.

So what have MRA's done about it? We have public events where men can freely speak on the issues that men face. We've sent letters to government officials who discriminated against men. We've provided legal counsel to men being raked over the coals in divorce and family courts. Just because you, with your head in feminist la la land (also known as up your own ass) haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist? Was that rude of me? I don't really care at this point since you've repeatedly defended woman who sang that she didn't care about someone's suicide.

I agree with you. It's a double standard that women can use misandry without a problem since not a lot of people in our society say something about it. But even the slightest thing said from a man and he is a misogynist and they dump the crimes of all men on his shoulders.

Probably because there is not 4000000000 years of women hating and enslaving men whereas.....

And that makes it right? How does that benefit equality? How does that view make potential men and boys allies to the cause of feminism vs not making them allies?

Something to consider, Andrew. The woman with the red hair said that Feminists don't like alimony and think it is patronizing and it should go.

Well....that's the first I've heard of feminists feeling that way.

Let's say she speaks the truth. Let's give her that benefit of the doubt. And there is doubt!

The real question is, "What have feminists done to get rid of alimony?" I mean, have they demonstrated? Written letters? Lobbied for change?

I honestly don't know the answer, but I suspect that they haven't done a thing. Even if they don't agree with men getting screwed over, have they actually done a thing to stop it?

I seriously doubt that they have.

Feminists have done as much to abolish alimony as MRAs have done to help any actual men's issue.

Explain why, when states have joint custody as the default for fathers, 90% of men getting a DIVORCE don't want it.
The true facts are in all divorce cases only 10% of fathers ever try for custody.
This is what the MRA's are fighting for, so why when it's there offered to men, they generally want the mothers to have custody? please explain?. It's society that expects women to raise the children, not feminism.
I also listened to what the lady in the video was saying & she was CLEARLY saying feminists don't want men to loose custody of their children. She agreed that it's not right.
If you ask most women they would jump at the chance to have joint custody, raising children on your own is the hardest job in the world & a financially draining job.
She was clearly saying she doesn't agree with how men are portrayed in the media, SHE AGREED.
If they're agreeing what else do you want?
Most of the complaints you talk about, feminism hasn't caused, they're caused by what society expects from men & women.
Feminism or equal rights for everyone is trying to move away from expected roles in society.
You complain about the things that feminists complain about, the difference is, you just want to blame women for all your problems.

Gee, maybe fathers don't fight for custody because THEY'RE BANKRUPT AND CAN'T AFFORD IT AFTER THEY'RE REAMED IN DIVORCE COURT? Use your head for two seconds please.

You listened to what she was saying? Good for you. So now it's totally fine for a woman, who has NO PERSPECTIVE ON WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE A MAN to dictate what men's issues actually are and that men shouldn't fight for their own rights? Ok, if we're going to play by those rules, then men get to dictate to women what their problems are and how they should be solved. Feminism is over, go home, men will take care of it.

Do you get it now? Did you ever think that maybe there's an entirely different perspective that feminism has been COMPLETELY IGNORING!?

And I don't blame women for the problems I mentioned, I blame feminism because feminism has been the direct cause! Feminism talks about tearing down gender roles, except men get a new one that treats all men like potential rapists in waiting (rape culture), tells them that all the world's problems are their fault (patriarchy) and you see nothing wrong with that?

I have yet to see a feminist admit that men are being raped by women at equal rates that women are being raped by men.

http://www.outsidethebeltwa...

What I have seen is feminists protesting gender neutral laws that will protect both men and women who are victims of sexual or domestic violence.

In fact, any time a law will help men, feminism is there to protest it.

http://dontneedfeminism.tum...

Feminism is for equality my ass.