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Andrew Larkin • 9 years ago

Greatest post on here ever!

jesus is my jew • 9 years ago

really? especially considering the fact that if you worship god for god being graceful then you are worshiping grace aswell, since him conforming himself to grace, and not something other than grace, is why you are worshiping him.. he acted gracefully THEN you worshipped him.. hello??

Guest • 9 years ago

Nonsense. God's grace is part of his character. We don't worship grace; we worship a gracious God.

Scout • 9 years ago

Spoken like a true idolator.

jesus is my jew • 9 years ago

you do not merely coincidentally worship a gracious god, you worship god because he is gracious, which means you must have decided to worship grace before you decided to worship god, then when god conformed himself to grace, you worshiped god.. you would not worship god If he was evil - why is that? you would not worship god if he was god and was evil or was not good.... which means you worship goodness first, then god if he chooses to conform himself to it. all you are going to do is say you disagree but not actually provide a psychological rationale explaining why you disagreeing is valid.. it's simple, predictable, lifeless and boring.

Jared Morrow • 9 years ago

There's a gaping hole in your argument. Your presumption that the character of Grace existed before the Creator God. God and his character can not be separated. In his infinitely eternal existance his character has not changed. He can't conform to grace because He is the Holy definition of Grace. The "What if" scenarios are irrelevant because he's not.

norishman • 9 years ago

I agree with that. But at the same time they raise a point. If God made grace, and is of grace (in character) as much as grace is of Him (in essence), then is it or is it not idolatry to worship God as grace?

Bingo • 9 years ago

It is idolatry to place anything in His rightful place in one's life. God's grace, mercy and kindness, and God as love is only who He is and is not a substitute. Do you only love your wife's arm?

Guest • 9 years ago
Bingo • 9 years ago

Idolatry is simply putting something or someone in one's life in the place that God should occupy. He is to be Lord, and first in our lives. You cannot separate out grace from God. It is by His grace that we can know Him.

Jared Morrow • 9 years ago

I see nothing wrong with worshipping God as grace as long as you are bringing glory to His name for who He is. Now if you tried to separate grace and personify it as something aside from who He is and worship Grace alone, you have a problem. Also, worshipping Him for His grace is good, but it isn't the end goal and fails to acknowledge many other great aspects of his character. I pray that we all continue to learn more about who He is and praise Him for each aspect of His character; not just the ones that are easy for us to like.

jesus is my jew • 9 years ago

you worship ordinary humans when they act gracefully as well... think of it like Christmas, you have to want the gift first before you can tthank and love the person who gave you the gift because they gave it to you... you love grace, and god therefore because he gave it to you.. not grace because god gave it to you.. god because he gave grace.. you don't worship god as grace, they're two separate things.. derrr.
llet's talk about idolatry then.. what is and should be first in our lives.. justice.. or god.. soo if god commanded you to do something unjust who would you obey - justice or god.. exactly. so you worship justice first, then god, it is in the throne of your life..
god is a person, love is not a person, it's a concept and attribute. stop saying god is love, its blasphemous against love, and justice.
which is more good - god or goodness.. god has to be good to be good, goodness just has to be itself to be good. goodness is more good than god is good. surprise. if goodness doesn't exist, god cannot be good, if god doesn't exist, goodness cannot be god, and can still be good.

Rachel Hedin • 9 years ago

It seems that you're very fond of false dichotomies and have never received an ugly sweater for Christmas. (Trust me, you can be horrified by the gift and love the giver, at least when crochet is involved.) Part of personhood is having attributes. To ask if God gave up goodness is to ask if God stopped being God or became someone else. These mind benders are amusing, but it's probably safe to say that if God changed into not God, we'd all find that awkward.

jesus is my jew • 9 years ago

don't be HILARIOUSLY RIDICULOUS. I AM EVIL. GOD IS GOOD. TO SAY THAT IF GOD STOPPED BEING GOOD HE WOULD STOP BEING GOD IS THE SAME AS TO SAY THAT IF I STOPPED BEING EVIL I WOULD STOP BEING ME. NO YOU FOOL, I WOULD STILL BE ME, JUST A GOOD VERSION OF WHO? OF ME. AND GOD WOULD STILL BE GOD, JUST AN EVIL VERSION OF HIMSELF.

Rachel Hedin • 9 years ago

Why the yelling? A Christian might say that if you gave up evil for good, you became a new person in Christ. Happy gymnastics.

jesus is my jew • 9 years ago

congratulations on missing the point totally.

Rachel Hedin • 9 years ago

Thank you. Now, I'd like a celebratory cookie.

Jared Morrow • 9 years ago

It's clear to me from your arguments that you do not view God as the creator of all things and as being existent outside of time. Until you can grasp these things it would be irrational to try to make this make sense to you as to why your "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" questions. God's very existence is the only reason we know what goodness or justice is. Without God there is not goodness, and a god without goodness is not God. They cannot be separated. God is the only perfect and holy representation we have of these characteristics. He is love, but also so much more. Sending his Son to live the life we were called to live, and to die the death we deserved to die, choosing not to spare him so that we may be justified to Him through union with Christ. That's perfect Love and perfect Justice. As for those who worship ordinary humans when they act gracefully, I would absolutely say that is idolatry.

jesus is my jew • 9 years ago

your response is laughable. concepts and possibilities cannot come into existence or taken out. if the possibility of goodness did not exist, god could not exist as a good being. therefore goodness is above god. if god did not exist. the concept of goodness would still exist.

T C • 9 years ago

The only way we know goodness is because it came from God. The Bible says God is good -- goodness originated with Him, as well as love, grace, etc. Without God there is no good.

jesus is my jew • 9 years ago

that's not an argument its just 1. bla says this is true 2. this is true.

T C • 9 years ago

To that I say, bla, bla and blah.

Benjamin Kinnebrew • 9 years ago

Hi Pseudonym,

I understand what you are saying here, and it deductively makes sense. However, if anything can exist independently of God, including attributes such as goodness, then He is not God, or at least not the God of the Old and New Testaments. God, by definition, is the greatest conceivable being. In other words, there is not a state of affairs in which He is not instantiated. He has necessary existence, and therefore it is logically impossible for there to be a possible world in which He is not present. All other things in existence do not share this necessary existence with God. In other words, all other things exist contingently and cannot exist independently of themselves. Thus, if something besides God, like the attribute of goodness, can exist independently of Him, then He would not be the greatest conceivable being, since one would be able to to conceive of a different being that is not subordinate to the attribute of goodness. Therefore, your argument is not sound, since the attribute of goodness does not have a necessary existence and thus cannot exist as an independent entity.

It can, and does, however, necessarily exist as an entity that is dependent on God. In other words, there is not a possible world in which the attribute of goodness is not attributed to God. Goodness and God always go hand-in-hand. Does this mean that goodness has a necessary existence if it necessarily exists as an entity that is dependent on God? Not at all. This is because goodness does not exist on its own. God determines goodness through His nature. Goodness IS His nature, if that makes sense. In other words, what we know as goodness is derived from the essential and inherent features of His divine characteristics. Therefore, it is logically impossible for goodness to exist independently of God, as you claimed, because God cannot be subordinate to the attribute of goodness. Goodness exists as an inherent feature of God's nature that is present in every possible world, due to the fact that goodness, as I said, IS His nature.

Also, please try to be more charitable to other posts on this thread.

Guest • 9 years ago

I understand what you are saying here, and it deductively makes sense. However, if anything can exist independently of God, including attributes such as goodness, then He is not God, or at least not the God of the Old and New Testaments. God, by definition, is the greatest conceivable being. In other words, there is not a state of affairs in which He is not instantiated. He has necessary existence, and therefore it is logically impossible for there to be a possible world in which He is not present. All other things in existence do not share this necessary existence with God. In other words, all other things exist contingently and cannot exist independently of themselves. Thus, if something besides God, like the attribute of goodness, can exist independently of Him, then He would not be the greatest conceivable being, since one would be able to to conceive of a different being that is not subordinate to the attribute of goodness. Therefore, your argument is not sound, since the attribute of goodness does not have a necessary existence and thus cannot exist as an independent entity.

It can, and does, however, necessarily exist as an entity that is dependent on God. In other words, there is not a possible world in which the attribute of goodness is not attributed to God. Goodness and God always go hand-in-hand. Does this mean that goodness has a necessary existence if it necessarily exists as an entity that is dependent on God? Not at all. This is because goodness does not exist on its own. God determines goodness through His nature. Goodness IS His nature, if that makes sense. In other words, what we know as goodness is derived from the essential and inherent features of His divine characteristics. Therefore, it is logically impossible for goodness to exist independently of God, as you claimed, because God cannot be subordinate to the attribute of goodness. Goodness exists as an inherent feature of God's nature that is present in every possible world, due to the fact that goodness, as I said, IS His nature.

Also, please try to be more charitable to other posts on this thread.

Olivier Jean Marie • 9 years ago

The premise of your argument is wrong because you put universals ahead of God. God is not under universals. God is goodness, he is love, he is justice. Those makes up his nature. We don't worship God because of his grace we worship him because he is God which implies that he is graceful. We don't know the full nature of him but Grace, love, goodness, and justice are just part of the ways he reveals himself to us. So no goodness could not exist outside of God because without God goodness doesn't exist. Also the problem with your example is that God would never tell us to do evil. See evil happens when we want to be God. So God can't do evil because he already is God. And I do think you are doubting the sovereignty of God by placing things above him that are clearly not.

Mo • 9 years ago

What on EARTH are you talking on about?

Guest • 9 years ago

'thought so! Superb!

FranChan (a brand I've given Francis Chan) says something similar. My paraphrase:

FranChan: What's your favourite movie? Rocky?
Audience member: No, Gladiator.

If, on the way home, FranChan decides that he really felt the guy's favourite film was Rocky and that that was what he should have said, he is simply deluding himself. Feelings are kinda irrelevant (/irreverent?) when God has spoken clearly.

Now, here's my *feeling*, I feel God is raising up another 'holiness' (set apart) movement 100 years after Elim, my denomination, started with the strong holiness movement which sparked Pentecostalism.

By definition, I can't be holy if I'm wholly similar to my environment. I'm just imagining a pine tree in a pine forest screaming (yes, web comments can contain anthropomorphic content) "I am a mighty oak!". Being a Christian is more like being an oak tree in a multi-story car park.

Caleb Woodbridge • 9 years ago

Well done on going public as an idolater! I hope that it will inspire other evangelical Christians to proudly confess their identities as MSPAI Christians.* Let's pray that Christian conferences and publications won't be shy in allowing you to share your story - after all, we badly need a proper conversation on this subject in the evangelical church.

* MSPAI = Money, Sex, Power, Approval, and other Idol worshipping

Wesley • 9 years ago

Love, love, love this. Thank you! Well done sir. Now, off to share this with the world.

chrismartin17 • 9 years ago

Awesome post.

Stylistically speaking, I really appreciate your bolding of the key phrases often used. Very helpful.

Thanks for the post. Will refer to this one for some time.

Michael Coughlin • 9 years ago

Amen. I personally LOVED the italicized sections.

James Bejon • 9 years ago

I agree with your reading of Paul, Andrew. It's important to remember that, for Paul, idolatry was inextricably linked to homosexual practices. And Paul's major issue was, of course, with the latter. (See Von Straussenhaus’s important work, ‘Götzendienst, Sexualität, und Ein Haar Ball Großes’.) Idolatry in and of itself wasn't a problem for him.

RayNearhood • 9 years ago

@ James Bejon - Brilliant.

Aaron Browning • 9 years ago

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

Ten4Word • 9 years ago

I feel that you are right, and have prayed about it for at least two weeks, probably closer to three, and have total peace about all of this.

Amen.

Guest • 9 years ago

Which is absolutely not to be confused with having a seared conscience or having grieved the Holy Spirit!

Atom • 9 years ago

Why use the term 'idolatry' when it's clear that what we're really talking about is worship equality.

jesus is my jew • 9 years ago

no no just praise god that he made everyone be born as a sinner so that he can condemn them for being what he made them as.. PTL!

Reasonable Logic • 9 years ago

Dear Pseudonym. (If that's even your real name.) I think you know that's not how it works.

jesus is my jew • 9 years ago

yes youre right, god did not give mankind a sin nature and they therefore do not live sinful lives without an alternative choice due to a nature being given to themselves which is sinful and choosen by someone who is not themselves as romans 5 describes because romans 5 is not true, only the bits of the bible that we like, and that is not idolatry.
am I suppost to tell you to wake up and stop living in an illogical psychological fantasy? do it yourself.

jesus is my jew • 9 years ago

I think I know that you don't know your bible or how to interpret parts of it.

John Kirkwood • 9 years ago

Finally! And it feels so liberating! Who knew! I'd share this now but I really have to call my ex-wife and let her know how wrong she was about my so called "porn addiction." Thank you! I had a feeling it was in there somewhere!

The Canberean • 9 years ago

Very clever.

And timely.

Thanks.

Matthew Gross • 9 years ago

Amazing work here. Thanks!

Daniel Motley • 9 years ago

Andrew, my cousin came out as an idolater a few weeks ago. Until then, I had made comments and remarks in my blog and to others that would be taken as hurtful and demeaning towards idolaters. I've come to realize, based on his testimony to me, that I've been wrong about idolatry. I'm glad that you've taken the first steps towards a great understanding of the love that Jesus has for us all, idolaters or no.

The Irish Atheist • 9 years ago

The fear of coming out to family members is a pain that has driven dozens of LGBT youth to suicide, self-harm, and grievous depression.

And you are making a mockery of it.

You want to know why there's such a prevalent opinion that Christians hate LGBT people? It's because of you. It's because of the vile thing you just did here, and the people who are laughing with you.

I am constantly amazed at the disgusting capacity for spiritual abuse Christians continue to demonstrate.

DG • 9 years ago

Daniel isn't making fun of people coming out, he's
making fun of Christians who oppose homosexuality until they know
someone who is homosexual and only then change their mind. As if when it was
someone else's loved one dealing with it, who cares, but when it's my
own loved one, oh, then it actually affects me and my mind can be
changed and maybe now I realize I should stop saying hurtful and demeaning things about homosexuals.

I am constantly amazed at the disgusting capacity for misinterpretation Atheists continue to demonstrate.

Guest • 9 years ago

Sorry, but you have to admit that the snarkiness on this board is uncalled for and clearly aimed at gays.

DG • 9 years ago

That may be, but my comment isn't in reference to the entire board.

A Noble Visage • 9 years ago

It's not misinterpretation. It's misrepresentation. The former is innocent. The latter is not.