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Guest • 9 years ago
Robin • 9 years ago

Not everything is that great in Germany. I am German and I visited many other countries. The ones that I liked best were Switzerland and the USA. When you are a talented and hard working professional in Germany, you hardly get any benefits for it in return. Remember, that you can easily pay 50% of your income for taxes, social assurance and retirement plans. But you won't see this money anymore. You are only working for people who do not have to work as much as you do, which means that everything goes into a single pot which everybody is served by. Since we have more old people in G and less young working people, we can already assume, that less and less young people work for more and more old. All in all you will never be able to have a solid financial background, even with a high paying job (100k is considered to be a very high paying job, but you end up with 50k after taxes etc). And now tell me how to finance a house, a car and two children in such an environment anymore?
So from my point of view, there is no benefit to work any harder in order to be better off. Many of the people I know leave the country for these reasons and go to countries where you are still rewarded e.g. for having a college degree. All others keep calm, do their 35h work (if any) or can benefit from social welfare. The question is only: who pays for it all? And why would they still do it?

Aviator0404 • 9 years ago

Robin, with 50K you can afford a car. Just calculate again... th 50% tax applies for high salaries. I am entrepreneur and paying all this taxes at the end - if it's so bad, go to Spain, Italy or the US and try to get a job same qualification and equally paid as in Germany, and then write your complaint again, please.

Christian Kunert • 9 years ago

Academic Positions in Germany pay 80K EUR for a full professor. Starting salary for an assistant professor in the US are about $120k at the top universities.....

If you do exelent work in Germany you get a present basket for Christmas and a warm handshake. In the US you get a promotion stock options and a $10k......

Yes you can live ok with 50k but what car can you drive? What house can you buy? A new Golf and a two bedroom apartment. That is hardly the luxurious live you dreamed of when you heard of a $100k job....

Calvin • 9 years ago

And you get to live in the most hated, the most fear-filled, barbaric nation in the world.....filled with constant insecurity and anxiety.

Beyond money is the idea of quality of life.....something difficult to explain to an American

BlattversusBlüte • 9 years ago

That's true. I am german, lifed and worked for about 4 years in the US and i would never do it again. I really love the americans (even thou in some staates they still convinced it is 1938 and think it is funny to greet germans with a "sieg heil")
and the country .... but no, thankls never again.

thelogicalamerican • 9 years ago

As a expat living in Germany, I can attest the Germans weakness is conformity and never looking to become anything better than average. Security outweighs personal gain, I can admire this quality but can not for the life of me live this way.

Angele Uwitonze • 8 years ago

Are we talking about Germany which is Europe's biggest, World's 4th biggest and best performing economy?
That doesn't sound like average to me in a World of 200+ countries!!

David Scarpitta • 9 years ago

Money in America is worthless if you are too stressed to do anything with it, and you are "just getting by" with your big'ol paycheck. Quality of pay does not equal quality of life.

Phil Ford • 9 years ago

Dude, you're delusional. And you think the quality of life is so grand in Germany vs the US? Really?

Nicodemus • 7 years ago

It wasn't that way when I traveled around Germany in the 1980's.....food was cheap, it was pristine...peaceful...then came that evil witch Merkel and the invasion of the Muzzies....how much fun it must be to be re-living the Crusades and not be allowed to fight back!

thelogicalamerican • 9 years ago

Thats your OP there Calvin, I find Europe to be much more hate filled then the US. Have non-whites exceed 10% of the population in any european country and watch them become animals. If you are hated your doing something right, human nature is one of jealousy and hatred. Barbaric, I think the very nature of Socialism is Barbaric and cruel. See different opions, and the world still turns.

Jeff Blanks • 9 years ago

Universal health care that works better and is cheaper per person is "barbaric and cruel"??

Jean Claude • 9 years ago

"I find Europe to be much more hate filled then the US" - sorry but I had to pick myself up after falling off the chair because I was laughing so hard. You have either not seen anything of EUROPE, a fair amount of countries with very different cultural approaches, or you have lived in a box in the US. That is the only way you could have possibly reached your stated conclusion.

Mauricio Lopez • 9 years ago

you're not taking in account that if in the us if you get sick, your insurance must be really good and you have to pay anyway. If you want to continue studying you still have to pay, and in germany education and health is free until some extent.

J Mikka Luster • 9 years ago

That's not quite correct. I had a very basic insurance, got cancer, and aside from having to pay to have a room for myself I didn't pay one cent. Compare to Germany where the non-copay version is a six person room, no home care, no payment for transport to and from the appointments, etc. All that was covered by my $90/month insurance.

Dental? Germany will rob you blind. US you can afford it.

Education? Yes, costs money. Money most people get through stipends, scholarships, whatnot. Better than BAFÖG any day.

Andrea • 9 years ago

Excuse me? Where in US are you living? Fantasy Island maybe?

J Mikka Luster • 9 years ago

Fremont, CA and then Dallas, TX during that time. Switched from Kaiser Permanente in CA to Blue Shield Advantage HMO.

Jutta Becker • 9 years ago

Jonas, please get your facts right. There are no 6-person rooms in German hospitals! Regular German health care pays for a standard 3-person room in hospitals. For 40 Euros/month insurance you get a single bedroom with the medical director attending you personally. There is excellent home care in Germany for your basic insurance. And there´s no exclusion whatsoever on any sickness you may need to have treated. Additionally, if you have to move into an old-people´s home 60% is paid through your health care and local community. Dental is not nearly as expensive as you state. And the health care regularly covers everything; you only pay 40% yourself in case of implants, ect. AND: Our education system is free. BaföG pays for the student`s cost of living only (rent, etc.).

Phil Ford • 9 years ago

I see that Jutta is that breed of German who can't accept any criticism of her country regardless of how true it might be. Jutta there are still hospitals in Germany with "mehrbettzimmer" and yes that means as many as six bed per room with the toilet and shower located in the hall somewhere. I have pretty extensive experience with cancer care in Germany. There are good clinics, but some very bad. Some don't seem to care at all if you live or die and the budgetary restraints inherent in a national healthcare system mean that despite everyone being "covered", when it comes to Stage III or Stage IV cancer, the docs simply pick and choose who's going to get a really decent shot at being saved and who is simply going to be left to die (unless you can afford to go to the US, Israel, Switzerland, etc.) The system simply can't afford to attempt to save everyone.

Gudrun Carius • 9 years ago

Try getting HIV in the US. There are many who don't get treatment because they can't afford it. That means there are more viruses in their blood and the probability of others catching their disease will go up. But perhaps YOU will never be in contact with THEM, because YOU are a winner.

Susan • 9 years ago

You are not being honest about "very basic insurance." I've worked for extremely large companies most of my life. The situation you described (having cancer and having to pay for very little yourself) is ONLY true for people like myself and ONLY WHILE WORKING FOR THOSE HUGE CORPORATIONS. Heaven forbid if you get cancer after you retire, choose to go to a small company or are temporarily unemployed. Then you are screwed.

J Mikka Luster • 9 years ago

Hate to disappoint you. I am a cook. I worked a basic, $2 over minimum, job at the time. Since very few cooks get workplace health insurance I was lucky to have negotiated at least the low rent one they were willing to give us.

Guest • 9 years ago
J Mikka Luster • 9 years ago

Yes, and that's a different story that has nothing to do with this "Germany is a paradise" fluff piece.

thelogicalamerican • 9 years ago

Health care is not free in Germany, its 12% of your income for your insurance. Primary care is great in Germany not so great in Secondary care. Are we so uneducated or so indoctrinated in a system that we actually believe that its free? So you telling me the German Government somehow produces health insurance through will and determination and not taxes?

Mauricio Lopez • 9 years ago

I pay almost 10% of my salary as a tax for healthcare insurance, and a 7% for the retirement fund to private companies (both compulsory by law when you have a contract) but that covers only a little fraction of my healthcare, I still have to pay for doctors, hospitalization and exams if I end on a hospital, and the bills are super expensive. Also I can't go to any medic, only the ones my health insurance has listed, and to the hospitals they sponsor. If i choose to use a different hospital or medic they don't cover my expenses, or they cover less from what my plan offers.

Healthcare and retirement funds were privatized here a long time ago and they made a mess with the system. Every 4 or 6 months this tax has a re-adjustment, while my salary doesn't. So basically I'm telling you that from my viewpoint you have free healthcare, and a very good one.

thelogicalamerican • 9 years ago

So from your viewpoint, 12% tax on your salary equals free? No wonder the world is in economic melt down.

Mauricio Lopez • 9 years ago

No, but they don't have to pay extra and you can tell healthcare is a right in germany, not a business. :/

thelogicalamerican • 9 years ago

Except you forget that your 12% is higher than my Health insurance plan and out pocket exspence by about 5% and that is worse case scenario on my part that is with illness and maxed out deductibles and co pays. You do understand that in the United States they can not refuse service to you, even if you have no way to pay. The United States also does not have debtor prison and getting rid of medical bills is not difficult.

There are so many programs out there in the US, if you are crushed by medical debt its your fault. There are so many programs run by the States and Federal Government it can be hard to navigate, that is why you have ombudsmen, visit one and I guarantee that you will be paying close to nothing after your visit.

Mauricio Lopez • 9 years ago

I don't live in the US. :P

Thomas Graber • 9 years ago

You are so wrong.. I have great medical insurance PPO plan with deductible.. Sure, It cost me after insurance to via ambulance and treated for injury caused by assault over $6000 and my portion to pay is about 3,000 with insurance..You are not the knowledgeable.

Werner Walt • 9 years ago

Dear Christian,
I don't share your thoughts about the 50% burden. If you take in account what benefits you get as an individual and society in common - this definitely pays off.
Three thoughts I would like you to think about:
1. The more money you make, the less social costs you pay.
2. Money makes more money. That means, that people who earn a lot and save a lot have the privilige to pay little tax (25% + social cost) for the profit.
3. Socially well off countries are stable societies. While you may see people on wellfare in Germany amongst us you might not be able to see the same "set of" people in the US - cause many of them are locked away in prisons.

And yes, I pay those 50%+. And I'm happy to be able to share, to pay for the old who built up this country after being smashed, to give others the opportunity to study and getting a chance, to drive a Golf though I could afford big.

What you relate to is something else. Being rewarded for hard work, being recognized for doing great things, going the extra mile. Money is not the greatest motivator. Money doesn't buy respect. Neither does it buy happiness. So there might be another way.

AnnoyedKitty • 9 years ago

"What car can you drive?" Are you serious? That is your problem?
If you get ill - you don't have to worry about your life or your job, because it is granted that you'll be back in your position even after one year of illness.
80k for a full professor (equals 100k USD) is a nice BASIC salary. You are free to gain as much money as you want in addition. Open an own business for example.
As a worker in one of the "Mittelstand" businesses it is quite normal to get provision at the end of projects. In addition, you get have a months salary for christmas and sometimes even for holidays in july.
Rents are considerably low if you don't want to live in downton munich. You can rent a decent house with a garden in the suburbs for 1000€/month (with 50k to spend, there is quite a bit you can save for the 30 days of holiday) Oh - or you just buy that house with a monthly pay of around that much money.

Stop whining.

Nina Tröster • 9 years ago

Thats just what I thought while reading all these comments by Germans. Compared to other nations we do live in paradise when it comes to social matters. If you (as a German) talk to anyone from the US or other European countries they just won't believe we have general free education (someone said "yes, it costs money" - okay, we pay like $350 per semestre for books and university facilities), a working healthcare programme you don't have to be rich for in order to afford it.
Sure, our system is not perfect. But how can you possibly complain about not being able to buy the most expensive Mercedes because taxes are too high? While anywhere else in the world people are envying us for having everything we want without too much struggle. But I guess that's our German attitude, never appreciating what we have, always complaining about everything. If all the Germans could finally value our achievements we would recognize the (almost) perfect conditions we enjoy in Germany.

Phil Ford • 9 years ago

I'm not complaining about not being able to afford the most expensive Mercedes (and it's amusing that you think of it in those terms... very German). I'm complaining about the ability to retire and enjoy life when I'm maybe in my mid-50's in the US vs working until I'm 65 or 70 in Germany just to get my kids through college. There are those of us for whom this is a very real argument when you compare the two systems.

Tina • 9 years ago

Dear Phil, I agree with you that D is not being nice to the better off. Maybe you should get your head around Steuerhinterziehung....that's what the rich germans do at least...but honestly: if D frustrates you so much - correct me if I'm wrong - why do you live there?

Phil Ford • 9 years ago

Because the alternative would have been watching my kids grow up on skype. Actually D doesn't frustrate me that much. II'm just tired of people like the author and Jutta selling the Koolaid to people who might not know better. Germany's fine but it's not some kind of Nirvana as some would preach. It has its drawbacks for sure.

onetinkerbell • 9 years ago

Not to mention public transportation in Europe is far superior to that of the US, so a car isn't always a must.

Christian Kunert • 9 years ago

You did not get the point but exactly emphasized it. A average worker lives as good as a top of the top engineers. Great when all you want to do is work from 9-5 and live your life after that. Not so good if you are a 10 times engineer. Most other countries reward knowledge and outstanding achievements. In Germany you get punished for over achieving things. The point about being the best is that you can live in Downtown Munich, have a nice car, get to a nicer vacation, don't have to worry if your kids or unexpected expenses......
Germany is great in providing basic needs and this is a good thing. But Germany takes it from the people that really carry the load of the German wealth. People complain about the top 1%. As a matter of fact the problems come from the 0.1%. The 9.9% (the top 10% minus the 0.1%) Live a live that is incremental better than the middle 80%.

And BASIC salary means maximum salary and minimum salary in the same word. There is no incentive what so ever in Germany to achieve anything*. The only reason it works is because the work ethic of the Germans is play hard party hard and you would feel bad if you don't do whatever is possible.

*disclaimer: It is not true that there is no insensitive or bonus etc. but any of those are rather a small extra than justifying the effort and talent.

AnnoyedKitty • 9 years ago

I still can't follow your problem.
For example: An engineer with a university degree and a not-so-badly-paid job in a big company. He has a life many people would dream about. Normally, he gets bonuses depending on the projects (and the risks that have been taken and so on) and a business car. The salary is enough to live a nice life with 2 holidays a year wherever he could want to go to. In addition he is able to pay for more than 2 cars with that salary (I don't mean "buy" but "pay taxes, fuel and insurance"). When he works over hours he can convert (most of) them into even more holidays.
That is something every average worker can have? I bet not.
Let's take the average worker.
Someone who went to school for, let's say, construction and metal working. That worker wants a family, a car, maybe a house on their own. If so, that house needs to be a bit off the city or maybe inherited. (Inheriting a house is possible because we build houses that actually last over 100 years) That worker wants to have a holiday a year with the kids. That works, he can do that. But he can't afford much more than that.

And now, where do you want to get more money from? That "average" worker? No. He deserves free time and a struggle-free life just as much as anybody else. How come that some people are never satisfied?

Is it just not fair, that that person gets more percentage of their money as someone better paid? Or is it because they aren't as "smart" as the ones who went to university?

I work as an engineer. I am the one who takes the risk, I am the one who makes the plan. And I get paid for it. The workers that follow my plans and instructions do their best to contribute to the project - they can do things I can't! And I am happy that they are there. I could not do ANYTHING without them. My salary is higher because of the risk and whatever. But that does not mean that they are second class people. They are great and I would hate to cut their salaries just to afford a third car.

Maybe the question should be: I pay 40% taxes. Where does all that money go to? This, that, church.. and the social system. Oh, we could cut that. (wait, that wouldn't be a smwart idea) We could cut it for at least the one who don't deserve it. The one who just never want to get their asses out of bed to go and look for a job (Wait. better idea, but how to tell? Still no way to go)

thelogicalamerican • 9 years ago

AnnoyedKitty, converting exchange rate is a inefficient model. Value of a currency is only valuable when doing international business or traveling from one perspective country to another. The Dollar in the US on its own home soil has 7% more value of purchase parity than the Euro does on its own soil. This is currency speculation at its finest.

WilErz • 9 years ago

Your claim is very far away from reality. According to OECD data for 2013, the purchasing power of 1 euro in Germany is equivalent to the purchasing power of 1.28 dollars in the US. 80k euro is therefore worth a bit more than 100k US dollars. (Of course, taxes are higher in Germany, but public services are much better, and I think most Germans consider this a good exchange.)
Not only is the euro worth more than the dollar, but because average inflation is lower in Germany than in the US, the value of the euro relative to the dollar increases over time (as the value of the mark did before the euro). If you go back to 1995/6, the purchasing power of one euro (converted to marks) was roughly equal to the purchasing power of one US dollar. Since then, however, the euro has had greater purchasing power than the dollar, and the gap steadily increases year after year. For your strange claim that a dollar buys as much as 1.07 euro to be true, you would have to go all the way back to 1980!

thelogicalamerican • 9 years ago

You don't understand basic principles of currency than or economics, and the Euro currency wasn't around in 1980. A currency strength doesn't directly correspond with purchasing power in a currencies home market or Foreighn markets as well. What exchange rates do is the exchange of one currency to another, based upon the worlds reserve currency the US dollar. Let me make it simple for you to understand, in Germany you use the Euro the United States the Dollar. In todays market in both the US and Germany, one dollar in the United States will purchase you more goods than one Euro will in Germany. I think you have exchange rate and purchasing power confused, if your not traveling outside the Eurozone the Euro has no advantage what so ever, have you been blind to the Euro crisis? Part of the Euro crisis is that Euro has two problems, a high exchange rate which makes foreign investment not want to invest in Europe because they get less Euro to operate there investment for the currency there investing in. Secondly the Euro itself has a low parity rating, connected with its high exchange rate.

Also what public services are better exactly? Im confused at this one, as both a American and German, who has lived in both countries. I don't find public services superior in either country, there both adequate and fees for things seem to be the same and delivery of services both run like clock work in both countries. Just wondering exactly what you are talking about.

AnnoyedKitty • 9 years ago

That wasn't my point, I was just answering to Christian Kunert

Gastón Iván • 9 years ago

Average college tuition fees per year are:

Germany - US$6,285

USA - US$28,500.

It is 4.5 times more expensive in the USA. Say you want to provide for two children, that is $12,570 vs $57,000? An $100k job won't cut it if you also want a luxurious live.

Paolo Lim • 9 years ago

It's not just more money. Let's say for the sake of argument you get more money in the US for doing a similar job to the one you did in Germany. The question is will you have TIME to enjoy what you earned?

jetjin • 9 years ago

Average tuiton fees per year in Germany must be near to 0 by now (at least in the public universities whic are the common ones). The last State abolished tuiton fees the next semesters. You still have to pay something around 50-100€ per semester for administrative costs and student organization + depending on the university you are attending something around 200€ for the Semesterticket which allows you to use public transportation in your town.

thelogicalamerican • 9 years ago

And the US degree is a much better value overall, in international business a US degree will get you much more salary compesation.

Barbara Nuffer • 9 years ago

Nonsense. Where do you come up with these inaccurate assertions you're posting on this site? I've taught at a German university and I work in the education field in Germany. I can tell you that the level of education is much higher here and that a German university degree has much more value than one from most US universities. A German university degree is highly respected throughout the world.