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cycle_friendly • 5 years ago

Abortion in Europe (selection of laws)

Sweden: Unrestricted up to 18 weeks, after 18 weeks permission is required, abortion not permitted if fetus is viable (in practice 22 weeks)
Netherlands: Abortions illegal if fetus is viable (in practice around 24 weeks)
Finland: Abortion legal up to 20 weeks or 24 weeks if fetus significantly impaired
UK: Legal up to 24 weeks
Germany: Legal in first trimester
France: Legal up to 12 weeks, after that only if two physicians certify mother's health at risk or child has severe incurable disease

Why is it legal to kill a viable fetus in Canada?

edit: here is a compilation of European Abortion Legislation from Planned Parenthood in 2009. Democratic countries have debates on these types of issues and set laws that take into account various rights, freedoms, medical evidence, ethics etc.
http://www.spdc.pt/files/pu...

I-tec • 5 years ago

it may be legal for lack of a abortion law... but it is not the practice at all.

That is a Pro-lifer's myth.

Late term abortions (after 20 weeks gestation) account for 1% of abortions in Canada, which doctors will tell you is about the equivalent of those that would be practiced for medical reason.

Canadian doctors are very very reluctant to practice late term abortions that are needed for medical reason... good luck finding one that will practice a non-medically necessary abortion at that late stage.
________________

That being said. Absolutely. There is no constitutional issue with regulating late term abortions.

Anything else, however, will pit you against the Charter, and you will lose.

So don't rejoice just yet.

Farm girl • 5 years ago

The point is... If late term abortions are so rare and basically never happen, what is the reluctance at having that reality put into law?

I-tec • 5 years ago

My guess is that you will find way more pro-choice people ready to put that into law, than pro-lifers.

Such a big part of the pro-life argument (for banning abortions outright) centres around the fact that Canada has no abortion law and that you can have an abortion here until the last second before birth (which is silly).

Banning late term abortions would kill a centrepiece of their narrative.
____________

Let's take a poll... If Harper tabled a bill tomorrow morning that banned late term abortions only (not abortions outright, or abortions on any particular ground), how many pro-lifers here would support it?

Neeny • 5 years ago

I would. Do you have any idea how late term abortions are performed? The doctor has to cut the fetus into pieces before removing it from the womb. That is to ensure the fetus is not born alive. A fetus with a brain, a beating heart and a consciousness, is cut apart in the mother's womb. How can any sane person believe that that is acceptable, and not murder?

canucktwofour • 5 years ago

How many late term abortions are performed in Canada today where that occurs? Are there any at all?

Neeny • 5 years ago

The point is that we have no way of knowing because clinics are not required to report their activities. How do you like that. We have to PAY for abortions, but we have no right to information about what we are paying for. Someone wants to keep this under the radar of Canadians at large, which makes me very suspicious. If there is nothing wrong going on then why not tell the complete story? Why not keep records so we can all see what is happening? Why does this have to be kept from us if it is all innocent and for good reason?

I-tec • 5 years ago

Neeny,

The stats show around 1% of abortions in Canada are late term abortions (which doesn't necessarily mean viable fetuses).

According to doctors that is somewhere in the vacinity of numbers you could expect for medically-justified abortions.

To centre the pro-life debate around late term abortions is simply disingeneous.

Now, as I have stated, there is nothing in abortion case law that stops the government from introducing legislation banning elective late term abortions. Nothing.

Anything other restriction however, such as banning abortion outright or banning abortions on certain grounds (whatever these grounds are) goes against the Charter and will not possible.

Just like reforming the Senate without the consent of the provinces.

I hope you are ok with that.... even if I doubt banning late term abortions will ever suffice you or any other pro-lifer.

cycle_friendly • 5 years ago

1% of 100,000 annual Canadian abortions(2003, don't have more recent #s) is still 1000 late term abortions per year. For comparison there are 500-600 homicides per year.

I-tec • 5 years ago

From University of Ottawa data...
"Over 90% of abortions in Canada are done in the first trimester, only 2-3% are done after 16 weeks, and no doctor performs abortions past 20 or 21 weeks unless there are compelling health or genetic reasons."
http://www.med.uottawa.ca/s...

Most women who have late term abortions originally wanted to have children but are forced to have an abortion because the fetus is severely impaired or non-viable, or because their own health is in danger.

To use women who go through such trauma as the poster moms for the pro-life movement is disengeneous and highly reprehensible.

Proud Surrey • 5 years ago

But also, there is no law against a mercenary like Henry Morgantaler (whom Chief Justice McLaughlin recently cast the deciding vote to award the Order of Canada) performing the service, isn't that so?

Yoda • 5 years ago

There is not.
I think we should have similar laws to the Europeans to prevent someone like Tiller setting up shop here.
In BC you cannot get an abortion past 17 weeks without a tertiary center referral ie BC Womans in Vancouver and then you need a medical reason.
I have seen precisely one in the last 12 years from our large practice.
The fetus had a defect incompatible with life.

I-tec • 5 years ago

And so he should have received the Order of Canada. He did a great service to Canadian women.

Be honest, Proud, you were probably against Mandela receiving honorary Canadian citizenship as well, right?

CARMEL350 • 5 years ago

Nonsense, there are no reason for late term abortions. Women who get late term abortions are usually the ones who have been informed that their child is not perfect...such as Downs Syndrome babies. 90% of all Downs Syndrome babies are aborted, how selfish!!!

Angus • 5 years ago

Nonsense?? Your comment is nonsense. There are plenty of medically necessary reasons for late term abortions.

There are 2700 stillbirths in Canada each year; stillbirth being defined as in-utero cessation of life after the 28th week. Many of these require medical assistance to deliver. There are 900 newborns who because of birth defects die on the day of their birth.

There are birth defects in late term that make the pregnancy non-viable besides downs or trisonmy13 both of which are determined earlier in pregnancy.

Would you force someone to carry to term a pregnancy if it was going to die the day it was born or within a few days?

You know what's really selfish, forcing other people to have children, disabled or otherwise, because you think they should. Tell you what, when you offer to raise all of the down's syndrome kids, all of the severely autistic kids - yes I know it's not determined during pregnancy - or all other severely disabled kids who require lifetime care and sacrifice, some to parents who simply lack the emotional tools required to care for them, then we can force people to have them.

monica • 5 years ago

Angus, I beg of you, please do give me every disabled child you know of that requires a lifetime of care, rather than killing him or her. Every, single, beautiful, one!

CARMEL350 • 5 years ago

And now account for the other 90% of abortions...did you know 64% of all abortions are coerced by someone other than the mother...boyfriend, parents, employer, Planned Parenthood, sometimes pimps and child molesters, did you know that? Do you know the three deadly words that are excepted in some abortions? They are, "It's a Girl"! Did you also know that abortions were accepted even when they were illegal to save the mothers life or in the case of rape? So, you really do not have any good arguments to back up abortion.

Angus • 5 years ago

I don't need to. I don't need to respond to your made up facts either. You don't know, nor can you know, the varied reasons that people give for choosing to have one. There are just as many people counselling and shaming women against it.

I personally wouldn't agree with nor endorse sex selective abortions but when you can possibly demonstrate that abortions based on sex selection is a problem in Canada - clue it isn't, which is why you have to reference other countries and then fear monger about doctors from there coming over here and performing them, it's a feeble joke of an argument so I'd abandon it wholesale - then we can have a discussion about your imaginary boogeyman.

You've clearly demonstrated an abject lack of knowledge on this topic seeing as you're completely unaware of the varied medical reasons that necessitate abortions, instead making false statements that there are none. So there are plenty, you're just too ignorant and too much of a true believer - aka zealot - to know better.

Edit: I note your silence on offering to raise all of the severely disabled children.

I-tec • 5 years ago

" So, you really do not have any good arguments to back up abortion."
__________

It's more like you - Carmel - don't have any data/reference/evidence to back up any of your claims.

For example, we have absolutely no data that shows that sex selection abortions even occur in Canada. None. Nada.

In all her years as Minister for the Status of Women, even pro-lie Ambrose as never deemed it necessary to study the matter.

Canada's "sex selection abortion" scourge is a made-up crisis by the pro-life movement.

A mother-issue argument to try to restrict women's rights.

canucktwofour • 5 years ago

Are you in favour of tax dollars being used to support families with disabled children then? Many of these children need support 24/7, as well as when they themselves become adults.

CARMEL350 • 5 years ago

So, it comes down to money with you, you are one sick puppy!

canucktwofour • 5 years ago

Answer the question. Are you in favour of tax dollars being used to support families with disabled children?

If you’re not, but perfectly willing to force women to have children, you’re not only a self entitled sick individual but one of the biggest hypocrites I ever had the displeasure conversing with.

CARMEL350 • 5 years ago

Of course, and I sense you are in favor of killing any unborn child deemed unexceptable, and do not meet some sort of standard for the right to live!

canucktwofour • 5 years ago

That’s not for me to say one way or the other. It must be an awful decision for anyone to make. Tell you what though, I will not judge anyone for what ever decision they decide, and I’ll also be first up advocating for support for anyone who chooses to knowingly give birth to a disabled child, as I‘m now doing. It’s quite obvious you’re the greedy one here, since you’re the one with the need to force everyone to do as you choose, but unwilling to support them financially when they are in need..

Dan • 5 years ago

Given that they are medically necessary, it's a strange "pro-life" position to say that what is wrong isn't that lives are being lost, but that the lives you prefer are being lost.

larcolant • 5 years ago

No person should ever be dismembered to save the life of another Later term abortions are barbaric, and the idea that any excuse is okay to dismember one baby reflects the society we are becoming. It is never okay to dismember or crush the skull of a baby to save the life of the mother. Do a C section in that case.

canucktwofour • 5 years ago

Have you read the many articles on the lack of support families have with children born with life long physical or mentally impaired illnesses? Many of these illnesses require 24/7 care. Even as adults, there is still no support available. Now we can’t even get support right for families or single mothers who choose to have children but find themselves suddenly needing support right. So how do you think we’ll ever see those families or single mothers we force to have children who need support right. Especially those with children born with lifelong disabilities. Those are the people my heart goes out to…

CARMEL350 • 5 years ago

That is why we put our faith in God, he is the only one who can give life and take life, everything else is murder!

catguy00 • 5 years ago

He condones slavery as well as genocide. Nice.

CARMEL350 • 5 years ago

God did not control slavery, since the bible has different meanings, slavery back in the day meant workers, God told the people to treat you r slaves well, and pay them what they deserve, but they chose not to. Also, lets talk about condoning "genocide" abortion has killed more human beings then all wars put together, and you condone that????

catguy00 • 5 years ago

“When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.”
Ex 21:20-21 (ESV)

CARMEL350 • 5 years ago

Glad to see you read the bible, ever look for anything good, or do you just cherry pick the parts you think are bad, and don't really understand?

Dr.RTFM • 5 years ago

No, he's just pointing out the bits that your cherry picking clearly ignores least you wind up "questioning god and falling into satan's grip." Face it, you haven't a clue what you bible says and you certainly don't believe it because if you did know what it said and believed it you'd never be able to sleep at night because you'd be so terrified.

Dr.RTFM • 5 years ago

"God did not control slavery"

Not very powerful god, is he.

"slavery back in the day meant workers"

No it didn't. Workers are clearly distinguished from slaves in your own Bible. Try reading it sometime.

"God told the people to treat you r [sic] slaves well, and pay them what they deserve, but they chose not to."

No he didn't. Go away and read your Bible. If that's too much, here's a short video for you to give you a quick introduction: https://www.youtube.com/wat...

As for abortion, since miscarriage, also known as abortion historically, terminates 25-40% of pregnancies, then your beloved god is the biggest mass murderer in history.

CARMEL350 • 5 years ago

God is all powerful and good, he works to keep it that way, and we will never question him, for he is are creator, and he has just cause to do what he fills is nessassary to keep us from falling into satan's grip!

Dr.RTFM • 5 years ago

"we will never question him" because if we did we might recognize him for the genocidal dictator he is.

CARMEL350 • 5 years ago

I guess we know where to find you when anything bad happens, hiding under a rock somewhere, like the f'n coward you are, you'd probably save yourself before your own children!@

canucktwofour • 5 years ago

Then why not talk about ways to prevent more of those wanting or feeling the need to have an abortion. The most efficient and effective method to stop abortions account of unwanted pregnancies and lift more people out of poverty at the same time is to promote and have contraception readily affordable, and conveniently accessible to all. Education in this area as well. Simply expecting human beings to practice abstinence is not only unrealistic, but it goes against the very grains of human nature itself. After all, this is now the 21st Century....

Unless of course your interests are to ensure future generations have workers, or as past generations called them, slaves.

CARMEL350 • 5 years ago

bull crap! It must be hard to be so weak?

canucktwofour • 5 years ago

Obviously your debating skills or comprehension levels are weak, what part of what I said do you have a problem with?

Dr.RTFM • 5 years ago

"bull crap!"

Oh wow! Going to have to do a few "Hail Mary's" for that one.

CARMEL350 • 5 years ago

You defend abortion, you are a despicable human being, you think your life is so damn important, well be a man and protect the weakest in our society.....the unborn!

Dr.RTFM • 5 years ago

"That is why we put our faith in God, he is the only one who can give life and take life"

And judging by what people consider "his" books, he certainly does like to take life, usually in the most barbaric and genocidal ways. There's a movie about it in theatres right now. He's got so many anger issues he wipes out the whole planet. Lovely guy. Please keep him, and his so-called morality, to yourself, thanks.

CARMEL350 • 5 years ago

Go check out some graphic abortion video's and let me know why they are exceptable, also check out the stories of people have survived abortions and tell them they do not deserve to live! Gianna Jessen for one and Rebeka Kissling for another.

Dr.RTFM • 5 years ago

Been there, done that, seen it. Ever read some history to see the types of torture your christian ancestors inflicted on people? Check out the names of fireworks and where they come from and why. Ever met some of the people who have been abused by your christian leaders? Ever seen what shells of people they have left behind to satisfy their own personal lusts? Ever seen up close what christian America did to Vietnam? Afghanistan? Iraq? Ever seen up close where your meat comes from?

Go away and never come back until you are willing to face the intolerable, inhumane suffering you and your kind have inflicted for millennia on humanity. Don't you dare talk about pain and suffering until you face your sins lady.

2gcr • 5 years ago

Actions done in the Name of God do were often done without the directive from God. Please recognise the difference

Dr.RTFM • 5 years ago

Do you really want me to start quoting your favourite holy book at you? The directives from god are pretty clear, unless you are willing to concede that the book is written by humans and not by your favourite deity, in which case, why should I care what it says.

CARMEL350 • 5 years ago

I thank him for cleansing the world of evil, I think it's time for another good cleansing!

Dr.RTFM • 5 years ago

You wouldn't recognize evil if it stared you in the face, which likely it does every time you use a mirror.

CARMEL350 • 5 years ago

He wipes out sinners, who do not obey his laws, and corrupt the innocent. Guess what, were all going to die sometime, enjoy facing him!