The moment you demanded that another man lose his livelihood, you lost me.

I don't see what firing Pinsof accomplishes other than trying to separate Dtoid from the issue. People fuck up, sometimes worse than others, and I would think education would be more important than punishment. I know it's a philosophy the YouCanPlay team uses to help fight sexual and gender discrimination in sports.

agreed

I don't think anyone is right in this situation.

However, I do not believe Alistair's intentions don't matter. His methods may have been foolish, but even then it all depends on your perspective. Is there a lot of hate out there for transgendered folk? Yes. Is there support, though? Yes. Is it better to live a lie than to be open and honest? Well, isn't this what the whole shit storm is about?

Alistair may have been over-stepping his boundaries, and he did it in the worst possible place. I can understand wanting to express your concern, and I agree that the best thing for her would have been to have been honest. Instead of being a coward she could have been a brave symbol to all the transgendered out there. Would she have received hate? Yes, but so does Orson Scott Card every time he opens his mouth. The only difference is who is dishing the hate and why.

If you're going to be a public personality, you gotta get used to people hating you for having opinions. It's what happens, and by having a soap box, pedestal, or podium to speak from, you automatically make yourself a symbol for those sharing those thoughts. So at some point Chloe was going to have to be honest. Imagine how much support Chloe could have lost AFTER the surgery? At some point the truth was going to come out.

That it was Alistair who outed her is not something I agree with. But he is not a villain. He is looking at this based on his own life perspective. As someone who has been beaten up, ridiculed, threatened, and told they are going to burn in Hell for something as trivial as playing video games and dungeons and dragons, with clear memories of being a child sitting in the shower crying and asking God why, I'm pretty sure I understand emotional pain. I may not have been outcast due to my sexual orientation or gender identity, but I felt alone, misunderstood, miserable, and like life just wasn't worth living.

But I also stopped being treated like an outcast when I went to a new school, and found a community that was more than welcoming to me when I went to College. In certain states or cities, I imagine it is easier to come out as a transgendered than it is in, say, the rural south. Just as it was easier for me to be a geek in a larger school district than it was in a small town where the most important thing was sports.

So it was not Alistair's place, and he really should have been gathering a support group of Chloe's friends for when she wakes up in the hospital to have a real conversation with her. It should have been kept private, or at least at first.

But transgender or no, Chloe lied to everyone about her circumstances. We can be all bleeding heart and argue that she "felt like she couldn't live another day in a man's body" or whatever until we were all blue in the face. It doesn't matter if that's how she thought, the wording was intentionally deceiving. This was not some terminal illness. This was optional, and she lied to people.

Funny thing is, if she was open about it, she might have gotten more support from people that aren't even familiar with her games, but are familiar with the plight. It might have even drawn more attention to her games. Sure, people might have shunned her, but this is the Internet. People like to fight for the little guy or gal.

But instead Chloe lied and intentionally deceived. Then when stuff fell apart, she streamed a suicide attempt on Twitch.tv.

Nope. If you were to remove the fact that this was because of transgendered issues, switch it out with something completely unrelated, well, nope. This would be the sort of person I'd want nothing to do with. There are only two justifiable reasons for suicide in my eyes: you are dying to save someone else, or you're going to die anyway but may as well choose the most painless path.

This is neither, and the mere act of streaming it suggests that Chloe might have more than a few screws loose in her noggin'. What's that? I just don't understand? You're right. I don't understand why someone would not only take their own life, but televise it out to the world.

And I'd rather not understand a mind that would.

I try to be open-minded, but I draw the line. Alistair was a fool, but Chloe's actions went from bad to horrifying.

Maybe I'm just closed minded, but as I said, I don't want to even understand someone that thinks there's justification for some of those actions.

As for whether Alistair should be fired, his actions were done on his own. He was not doing it as part of Destructoid, he did not write it on Destructoid, so as far as I'm concerned it was a personal action. Would you want to be fired from your job for doing something stupid on the Internet?

Strip away all the titles, and you have a "person" trying to scam people by pretending to be dying in order to get money for another reason. It's a scam, no matter how you look at it. I know we talked about this last night, but I changed my opinion after the way you reacted. I knew she was transgender WAY BEFORE allistair said anything (more than a month before his tweet). It was all over the internet since day one. While Allistair may not have handled the situation 100% proper, that doesn't negate the fact that Chloe was out to steal people's money for personal gain.

You have a serious fucking issue, Analoge. You are not the ambassador of transgender people. You are not the protector. It is not your place to make demands over what happened. Whatever made this person do what they did, they should pay for it based on common laws. They don't get a fucking pass because you share their identity.

Bottom line is you wouldn't feel the way you do if it wasn't a transgender. Chloe should not get a free pass for this. She should get the mental help she obviously needs.

That's all I have to say. I'm not coming back to check comments. I blocked you on Twitter, and if I see you in a hangout, you're muted (assuming you don't use your "powers" to insist that I should be un-friended by common friends.)

I actually heard early rumours to this effect during the campaign (not from Allistair) so this doesn't surprise me... however, the problem is that Chloe put herself in this position by misrepresenting her medical issue in a very public venue. If she had been honest and upfront, I actually have little doubt that her sexual re-assignment surgery might have been funded, but to lie about other health issues (particularly a fatal one) is just wrong.

Regarding Allistair being fired, no, I don't in any way support this. What seems to have transpired was done as in a personal capacity after getting to know Chloe through work done for Destructoid. What he did also seems to have been done with the best of intentions and seems a personal interaction with Chloe and Chloe alone and not the transgendered community in general, nor other transgendered people.

I don't see a need for a public apology when what transpired wasn't publicly done on Destructoid (aside from the initial support for the Indiegogo campaign and subsequent removal of support as was done by every group that supported the initial campaign).

Regarding the raising of transgender issues on Destructoid... I can think of at least 2 (now 3) bloggers on Dtoid that are transgendered and regularly (and intelligently) discuss this topic and raise awareness of a variety of issues. The reality is that only a transgendered person can write with real knowledge on this issue, and any attempt by one of Dtoid's regular writers will likely come across as patronizing and ill informed (much like some of Jim's feminist diatribes do for some women).

It seems that Allistair's biggest mistake was becoming more personally involved with a very troubled individual. It seems that he tried to handle it the best he could, but regardless of what choices he made, there would likely be criticism.

You are not an outcast. Destructoid has always seemed very supportive of any gamer who chooses to disclose aspects of their personal life... as long as they are honest. Nobody likes to feel that they were deceived, and to underrate the kindness of strangers seems part of the mistake that Chloe made. While it may have been extremely difficult to be honest about something as personal as wanting SRS, she had the option of being honest, or simply not pursuing such a public venue for her surgery.... but she chose to lie. I think that Dtoid handled this diffcult situation in the best way that they could... and Allistair was caught in a difficult position through his own kindness in reaching out to her on a more personal level.

I agree with what you said but at the same time I don't understand why Alistair couldn't have once he found out the KS was a scam that he immediately just post on Dtoid that the reason it was pulled is because it was indeed a scam and not reveal any details past that such as what the KS was really for. Having said that Alistair should not be fired IMO because of the way Sagal acted and really people who threaten suicide aren't usually going to commit it. Especially if they stream said suicide over twitch. She needs to get her shit together. Sounds harsh but she does. Coming out is stressful but we're not living in the same world anymore, I imagine she would've got a lot of support actually. If she had just been upfront then none of this would've happened. She also said she wasn't sorry which was a bit of a dick move. Internet moves fast, most people will not even be thinking about Sagal in a week so she as a second chance at life and then some.

" I don't understand why Alistair couldn't have once he found out the KS was a scam that he immediately just post on Dtoid that the reason it was pulled is because it was indeed a scam and not reveal any details past that such as what the KS was really for"

According to Allistair, Chloe threatened to kill herself if he revealed it was a scam. So Allistair was in a difficult situation and he choose to not reveal anything to try to help Chloe. Then when she tried to kill herself anyway he decided to reveal on Twitter the campaign was a scam and the backlash occurred.

Didn't know about that. I would love to hear your version of the story, if you're really Chloe Sagal. Hope you're recovering from the situation.

Yeah. There was a tweet going around linking to the quinnae article saying something along the lines of: please retweet this and join in "condemning" Pinsof for his actions.

Alistair has always come across to me (just a reader of his work) as someone who cares deeply about representing the truth. At times that kind of ideology can seem a little absurd in the gaming press because, um, these are video games. But I can understand why Alistair has felt the way he has, considering that he was the one who wrote the initial post on Dtoid trying to convince readers to donate money. In the gaming press, "ethical journalism" is usually to do with advertising and taking money from publishers. This kind of situation has hardly any precedence to have enacted any kind of ethics discussion or training of writers by a site like Dtoid.

Those tweets where he uses male pronouns to refer to Chloe do look bad, but in context, Alistair was using those to try to refer to her as she lives in her daily life, away from the internet. I honestly don't know enough to say whether that was right or not, but the hostility over them, and using them out of context was incredibly unfair to Alistair.

What I'm trying to say is that, whether or not it was right of him to do what he did, I truly don't believe what he did was out of hostility, or "paternally patronising". As such, I don't think terminating his employment is in line. Given what I honestly think is a lack of malice, that tweet that was being retweeted should not have been "condemning" him. Condemn the actions, but education is far more important. As a fellow (possibly pompous) cis white guy, I'd appreciate the education as well.

Here's the thing, though. Allistair's intentions don't matter. He doesn't get to say what's good for any trans* person, whether they are in crisis or not. In trying to help Chloe, he may have cost her her life. As for the firing and public apology, Destructoid is in a position to take a strong stance against cyberbullying (Yes, I would call revealing someone's personal information over a public twitter for any reason an act of bullying). I do agree with your point about transgender* issues being spoken about by trans* people, but it also shouldn't always be on us to self-advocate. A cis person doing the legwork to find out about the trans* community and writing to raise awareness of it could go a long way.

... when Chloe formed a relationship with Allistair, then his intentions did matter. He kept quiet about the situation until she did attempt suicide and then made the decision that honesty was the only way she was going to get the professional help she seems to need. It was a personal call, and "outing" her may very well save her life... because she is currently living lie that she created in a very public venue which had to be adding to her own stress. It wasn't cyber-bullying and in fact sitting on the story (as a journalist) was something that few journalists might have done.

If he had continued to keep quiet, then the rumours and nasty speculation would have continued. Now that the truth is out I suspect that there is more sympathy for Chloe and the predicament she was in. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that you're angry at Allistair and not Chloe. She the one that perpetrated this entire mess by doing a very public fundraiser based on a lie that she had a terminal condition, rather than being brave enough to be honest.

Well said.

But that wasn't his place. He had no business outing her for any reason. When I was in the closet, if someone had outed me "for my own good" I'd have been devastated. Queer people come out when they're ready, not when some pompous cis guy tells them to. I am not mad at Chloe. I am also not mad at Allistair. I am mad at the society that keeps telling people that it's okay to out a trans* person because you think it's in their best interest. That is privilege speaking and it is wrong.

you know that when you say "pompous cis guy" it sounds like "those greedy jews" or "this faggy tranny"

Unacceptable. Don't use those words again. You can make your point without saying shit like that. I get what you were trying to do though.

Using "shit" as derogatory. I identify as shit, and do not appreciate it being used in a mean-spirited way. Please ban yourself.

But they just promoted me!

He's a cis guy. His actions were pompous. Don't know how that gives you license to use slurs that are aimed AT ME on my own cblog.

His license is that D-toid is an open community and these blogs exist to further that notion, don't pull the THIS IS MY C-BLOG card simply someone doesn't agree with you.

The internet is made for free speech, so I'm going to put slurs thrown at this marginalized person for being different in the comments of her blog so that she can feel how bad it hurt me that she said a mean thing about a cis person.

Do you hear how ridiculous that is?

Fair enough, but the idea that I'm being persecuted for having the audacity to agree with/fit into the gender that I was born with every time I see the phrase "cis scum" or it's implied that trans* people have some innate knowledge and feel the need to "educate" non trans* people, there's an incredibly amount of superiority that I've seen from the trans* community. I hate the feeling of being persecuted for being who I am from people who claim that I'm persecuting them by me simply existing.

Jill, I've supported you for a long time, and I hope that you get the support that you need, but I feel like you try to isolate everyone rather than have a discussion with them on even grounds. Hell, you blocked me on facebook last night because I liked someones comment that expressed an opinion different than your own. I don't know how to try and be your friend anymore.

I didn't block you, and the sooner you get that "cis scum" shit out of your head the better. Never have I said that phrase or implied it in my speaking. Do you know how much easier my life would be if I stopped associating with all my cis friends? You know why I don't do that? Because I love you guys.

Did I say the internet? I said d-toid, you're tossing the word around like a vile insult. Hell at this point the only tossing slurs around is you.

You're an adult, act like one.

Oh, so "faggy tranny" isn't a slur. Ok. Any more social justice wisdom to impart?

He didn't call you that, he used them in context to explain your behavior.

Stop being so fucking defensive.

Report any hateful language to a mod in the future. We will look into it and take action if needed.

I flagged all the posts as inappropriate.

Report them to one of us as well. That'll draw attention faster.

The community may be open, but it's not open to hateful language like that. Regardless of how he/she meant it.

Language which he used as example to show how Analoge is acting. He didn't call her that.

I know and stated that I knew that. Which is why I didn't nuke the comment. Doesn't mean it's ok to use though.

He didn't use hateful language. He made an example in response to what could be perceived as hateful langauge from Analogue.

And I covered that. It's still language that's not allowed.

You're not allowed!!

*sigh*

yeah i get it i have to be reviews editor to make my points like that. because making a stand for tolerance doesn't matter if you don't make it PC enough.

i was making examples on how you made a simple term to an insult. that "this faggy tranny" was used as an example, you should understand, how much it can hurt

Do you even know what "cis" means? It's not a slur. It's just the opposite of trans. your callous slur usage is hurting me. Please educate yourself.

When you say "some pompous cis guy" you cannot possibly tell me that you meant it anything other than insultingly. You can practically taste the hostility. Hell, I had to google it to find out that it shouldn't be an insult.

i know what it means, what you didn't get was me explaining that you made it a slur

CIS can be used as a slur though, the same way any word can. Dreggsao doesn't seem to be actually meaning to slur anyone, but giving an example of how to HIM and possibly others, calling someone a "pompous cis" is just a harmful and slurry and calling someone "this faggy tranny" and I can see exactly what he means if that was his meaning.

If someone tells you faggy tranny isn't offensive but it is to you (general 'you') does that suddenly mean it isn't? No, the same way calling someone a 'pompous cis' isn't automatically NOT offensive cos the person using it says so.

Chloe said she was close to committing suicide well before this whole thing exploded and well before Alistair did what he did.

And if Alistair doesn't get to say what's good for a trans person then who is? You?

By doing what he did he confirmed what most suspected about her fund raiser but he also did one thing, he put her in a position where she's going to receive a wealth of sympathy, hell she already is, was this Alistairs intention? I don't know if he's that smart, either way Chloe gets a support system and whatever help she might need now.

Its going to come with backlash but what doesn't.

She brought this upon herself. When she started a fundraising campaign to fund her medical expenses related to SRS, she had already, for all intents and purposes, come out. She should have realized that she was putting herself in a position to be out the moment she made funding her medical expenses a public endeavor. It was irresponsible for her to expect the public to fund her medical expenses based on a falsehood without ever attempting to seek the truth.

I'm surprised you think being transgender is a good justification from stealing from people, and that it should be a strong enough shield that anyone who exposes that theft should lose their job. That seems a little absurd to me.

I finished reading his full Twitlonger explanation, and I can't say I'd have done it differently in his shoes. It's sad that people who go out of their way to defend everything Chloe has done are demanding his head, like it's a battle between two different sides.

Shit happens. Feelings get hurt. We all learn a little. Demanding someone lose their job so you can be "happy" is a properly fucked way of thinking.

I can't help but wonder if some people assume that him losing his job creates a time travel effect where we all go back and any outing/lies on either side is prevented.

Taking away someones paycheck isn't helping anything. Sagal tried to increase her revenue through lies.

To me its kinda amazing how much people whether they're on one side or the other are throwing their 2 cents in considering how little we actually know.

Well we know that what she was doing was in fact criminal. The idea that Allistair has done something so reprehensible that he should lose his job is ridiculous in light of that fact.

Using trans status as a shield to justify criminal actions is reprehensible, and it does nothing to engender support for the trans community.