This is awful. I don't always agree with Anita (although I think the work she does is really valuable). I have no idea whether Zoe Quinn cheated on her boyfriend. But it doesn't matter. Because nobody deserves this kind of treatment. Even if they were both terrible people, this would be incredibly out of line and horrific. And the fact that this level of vitriol has resulted from things as minor as making a point that others disagree with is truly sickening. Anyone who says we don't need feminism anymore needs to take a look at some of the things being said. I hope they both stay safe and stay brave!

I think it's been terribly telling that the outrage over "ethics" has focused on Quinn, but not the actual Kotaku writer in question.

Good point. Even if it was true (which it appears not to be) it's always framed as "she's a *insert slur here* for sleeping with someone to get something" and not "he's an unethical journalist for using his influence to get sexual favours"

If Sony paid a journalist $1000 for a good review, we'd be mad Sony would try, but we'd be MADDER the journalist took it.

I would not argue that trying to get good press through sex is ethical.

BUT a game dev's job is to make a game. That's the job description.

A journalist's job, however, is to avoid undue influences.

This is all exacerbated by the fact that the gaming industry, and the independent gaming industry even more (vs. corporate giants like Sony), is not very big. Lots of writers and journalists have friends who are game devs, whether before or after any of them took up these occupations, and some are both.

I don't think we can get mad about a game reviewer sleeping with a game developer and then not reviewing their game. No lines have been crossed there.

Hm, I'm not sure I'm coming across right. My comment is *regardless* of established facts of this specific situation.

Say, a game dev did sleep with a journalist for the specific purpose of getting a good review. Say, this journalist was complicit in this purpose and also did not disclose this interaction/relationship. The person who failed here is still the journalist.

In such a case, I'd be like, "Wow, yeah, that dev is kind of sketchy" but I'd be way more critical of the journalist.

Trying to defend Quinn by sayng she didn't actually sleep with anyone because this is the truth is good, but doesn't quite acknowledge the fact there's still an obvious sexist bias at work here.

I would agree with that. Not that it's okay to try and sleep with a reviewer for positive coverage, but no one expects you to be impartial about your own product while there is an expectation of impartiality on the journalist.

I absolutely agree with you on this. We should be more critical of the journalist than Quinn on this.

Except of course people are funding them are also writing about them. In some cases, people are sleeping with each other and writing about them. There's a serious ethical breach, enough so that both polygon and kotaku have rewritten their reporters handbook twice in the last 5 days.

Then of course there's also the shady stuff, like quinn pulling a dmca violation against someone elses content. The shadow bans on reddit relating to "any" discussion what-so-ever, and the backpedaling by editors in chief when they're shown that their reporters are engaged in ethical misconduct.

But its not ethical misconduct in this case. He didn't write a review.
Everyone posting is assuming that's why she may or may not have slept with him. It's quite possible that she ya know wanted to have sex with him without needing an excuse. Nor is it unethical to mention someone that you've had a relationship with depending on the context...nor do we actually know if or when the two engaged in a relationship. This is ALL irrelevant to the conversation.

there was money to ZQ's patreon account while these journalists were also writing about her. that's what caused the reevaluation of the code of ethics. the outing of sexual conduct has nothing to do with the situation at hand but it did reveal a relationship between journalist and developers that were not disclosed. there may have been no sexual conduct during the time the articles were written but the money trail was there. also the incident with ZQ and TFYC was not discussed in any outlet at all brought more questionable attention. its not an issue of getting positive press but also the suppression of negative press. none of the sexual conduct of ZQ was reported on and it was not actually the catalyst. ZQ sent a DMCA to youtube video that used question the ex's post ( that was already censored rightfully) for the use of the advertising image for Depression Quest. Firmly a fair use issue. this was brought up in Reddit in which 32,000 posts were censored outright regardless if it had to do anything about ZQ. that's when the Streisand effect hit in full force and people started looking in to the relationships that were alleged in the ex's rant. if it wasn't ZQ's illegal use of the DMCA, this wouldn't have called in the question of ethics surrounding ZQ and everything here wouldnt have happened. people saw the allegations and connected ZQ to a writer from kotaku and former RPS writer and a judge, i believe, to an indie competition in which she got awarded. her game depression quest has been lauded 10/10 in the press by people connected to her while the rest of the gaming community revolted in the opposite judgement leaving a cloud over the whole thing for quite a while now. Anita on the other hand has been the ire of the community for a while now believing her lack in-dept examination of the topic she chose. releasing a video in the current situation dragged her into this. taking things to a whole new level. many believe that she has done this before for the controversy and is doing the same again. the fact that the seemingly cronyism is proceeding is furthered because they are both associated with silverstring media and now everything is going to hell in hand basket.

Really? It's not ethical misconduct to have a relationship with someone, and then make a mention of them in an article.

This isn't earth shattering stuff, see this isn't irrelevant to the conversation at all. In the world of "real journalism" if someone is at that distance to either a story, or a source. Ethically you must recuse yourself from writing it in order to avoid any possibility of a conflict of interest.

Isn't that on the journalist and not on the person he/she slept with? Why is this brought up when looking at abuse that the developer faced/faces? Oh, that's right, because she's a woman and any time sex comes into the equation it's her "fault".

It is irrelevant because we are not talking about journalistic responsibilities on this forum, we are talking about the abuse that women in the gaming industry face.

Actually it's on both. A person who is willing to throw whether money, sex, or anything else has no integrity or personal responsibility. The journalist, has no ethics. Both deserve to be called out for it. Unless of course you're saying that corruption is a good thing.

Sadly, it's not irrelevant. But let's take a look at some of Anita's works shall we? Then go jump back to the days of Jack Thompson. We noticing a trend yet? How about male developers who get the same type of abuse, do I hear you saying anything.

Nope. You're attempting to make it an issue based on sex, when in reality it has to do with an exceptionally small segment of people. Just like it's an exceptionally small segment who write threatening letters, and tell people they hope they get cancer.

This story makes it seem like the journalistic corruption allegations are just about the idea of there being a good review, there's more to it than that. And "nor do we actually know if or when the two engaged in a relationship"? Yeah, we totally do.

Please link to evidence showing they were in a relationship. Please also link to coverage written by the journalist in question about Quinn.

Claims from a whiny ex-boyfriend =/= evidence. If the genders were flopped we wouldn't take that seriously for a second, why is it credible now?

Uh, no. I'm not going to watch a 25 minute smear video to get proof that the articles exist. They either do or they don't, and if they do they can be linked to.

Just go to the boyfriend's blog; extensive evidence. He was in a library, she was somewhere else in the city, they were in a chat on facebook when he confronted her, chatlog of everything. Also, she's not denying anything.

See xServer's reply immediately below this. It sums up the counterargument to what you just said so perfectly that I didn't realize it wasn't a reply at first.

The evidence has been linked and found wanting.

Good lord, seriously? THAT's your idea of unforgivable corruption? He literally only mentions her in that article in point of fact because she was there. He makes no qualitative judgments in regard to her, and the only time the name of her game appears is when he calls her "Depression Quest creator Zoe Quinn" so people have context for who she is.

Man, what's the next big scandal gonna be? "Game reviewer stands in elevator with developer"? CORRUPTION!!!!!lkjk!lkj!!!!

But then again, Zoe's the one getting threatening messages and massive abuse, even though Nathan should be receiving the brunt of those if this was REALLY about journalistic corruption. You say you disagree with that, but that doesn't change the fact that this entire "controversy" is colored by people slinging horrifying abuse at a woman because her ex aired his dirty laundry.

That's because, as much as some others may try to say that it is, it's really not about journalistic corruption. It's about putting and keeping a woman "in her place."

Yes....what ARE the ethics of rape and death threats? Is there an Aristotlean treatise on how to abuse a human at a distance mostly anonymously to the point that they call the police? I am bemused by the depth of commitment to ethics...by this lot.

Unless someone can point me to an article where he actively called for the cancellation of the show through his platform and that was a pivotal factor in shutting it down, then that point is completely irrelevant. He's a journalist and covered a thing she was at in retrospect. It got canceled because a lot of people, not just Zoe, has serious issues with it.

But you know, all of that is STILL completely irrelevant, because even if this really was a serious scandal, the onus is STILL NOT ON ZOE.

"but to be honest, she was the one who started everything by"

No. That fact that she is being hideously abused is not in any way her fault, and trying to shift the blame away from the people who are ACTUALLY CARRYING OUT THE ABUSE is fucking disgusting.

Blah blah blah, she did something I don't like, bad feminism always now, blah blah blah

Does the name Jennifer Hepler ring any bells to you?

Did you even read that games radar article you posted, she's IN IT.

Good lord, you aren't even serious are you?

I just want to show being threatened in the game industry has nothing to do with what sex a person is

Translation:

I just want to show reality is what I say it will be.

It is a smear campaign. You don't see people lining up to castigate the men she slept with, men who (assuming that they granted her favors for sex, which I don't necessarily believe is true) acted in at least as badly if not worse. It's just another example of slut-shaming. And the fact that you try to provide evidence of her "wrongdoing" in a space that is focused on the abuse she and Sarkeesian have faced is a classic example of trying to find justification for that abuse.

I fully support anyone exposing her for what she really is.

THIS IS NOT THE PLACE FOR THAT.

I'm not defending Zoe. I am talking about the appalling behaviour of the people who are attacking her in a brutal and completely unconscionable way. Their actions are off-the-scale crazy. Bringing up her actions implies that she deserves it. I don't think anyone deserves it.

Do you disagree?

*said in singsong*

STILL NOT RELEVANT

So, wait, they were on a break and she had sex with someone who, although a game reviewer, did not actually review her game?? Oh. My. God. The NERVE of that woman! Having sex with someone while not in a relationship with someone else! TROLLOP!

(seriously, I don't even care if she cheated on her ex while they WEREN'T "sort of" broken up, what does any of this have to with anything??)

So, that "zoepost" link everyone's been posting isn't to Zoe's own website, but to the ex-boyfriend's that was created specifically so he could whine about how terrible his ex-girlfriend was?

And these trolls are treating it like it's a legit site?

OMFG

Indeed. Why is it any of our business?!!

No, that isn't what we want.

What want is for misogynistic trolls to stop perpetuating other people baseless butthurt assertions as if they were fact.

That thing proves nothing except that someone was obsessed enough to attempt to divine the motives one specific person to portray them as some lying conniving scheming person we should all agree to hate on.

At the top of the page you linked to

This submission is currently being researched & evaluated!

You can help confirm this entry by contributing facts, media, and other evidence of notability and mutation.

WHOOOPS your "everything in there has proven to be a fact

Under investigation =/= proven fact

What I want is civil discourse and, if something illegal or unethical has happened, for action to be taken via proper channels and appropriate punishment meted out to the parties involved VIA OFFICIAL CHANNELS. Not some vigilante justice by random members of the public. Not death and rape threats by deranged gamers who feel entitled to harming another for...reasons.

I don't see how proving that Zoe acted in an unethical manner gets me any closer to what I want.

"What I want is civil discourse and, if something illegal or unethical has happened, for action to be taken via proper channels and appropriate punishment meted out to the parties involved VIA OFFICIAL CHANNELS. "

We also want this. Something that I want, in specific, is for Twitter to be subpoena'd to provide the IP logs for the logins of the throwaway accounts that sent Anita Sarkeesian those threatening comments.

We've been asking Anita to do that for awhile.

She won't though.

Because they'll lead to her or to one of her friends.