Heck, give me a government grant and I'll study the beejeezus out of it!

Which, come to think of it, is what the atheists want to do.

All religions can't be right, but they can certainly all be wrong. Just sayin..

Nobody asked.

Don't want anyone casting doubt on your belief system.
But you've every right to be concerned.

Science no more has to prove the non-existence of "God" than the non-existence of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy.

As the majority of earth's population do believe in God's existence, it's left to unbelievers wielding the mighty sword of 'science' (and brilliant individuals like yourself on internet forums) to prove He doesn't.
It is a several-thousand-year-old exercise in futility that has never failed to fail. Utterly.

No, you have that backwards. Even if a trillion people were making a claim, and one person disputed it, the burden of proof would be on the trillion making the claim.

Truth isn't subject to popular opinion.

As Galileo said when threatened with torture or worse by Pope Urban VIII for daring to oppose what all humans were certain was true at the time, that the earth was the center of the universe: "never the less it is so." And it was so even though Galileo was the only one who knew it.

Like the old saying...
"Eat crap, 2 billion flies can't be wrong !!!! "
The number of believers is irrelevant !
If YOU have the need to be a slave to some fictional supreme being and have 24 hour monitoring over your actions to keep you "morally" fit, then have at it.
Just stop pretending that we all have that same need.
As for me, I prefer to take the responsibility for my own actions.

You do take responsibility for you own actions whether there's a God or not. We all do. The only difference between those who believe and those who do not will be who is right and the consequences of those beliefs.
If no God, no consequence but what happens in this short life we have on earth before we rot in the dust.
If there is a God, then we will account for all "our own actions" before Him and I don't really want to be held accountable for the rotten and not so rotten things I've done in this life...this is why Jesus came, so He could take my punishment for my rotteness (sin). I hope, one day He comes to be Lord in your life.
The prospect of eternal life without hate fear or pain, with Him somehow gives me great comfort in this short life on this rotting world.
Take care Cap.

Well that proves it then! Invisible supernatural beings, that live forever, do exist because the majority of the earth's population believe!

Okay, then prove God doesn't exist. Feel free to use as many words as you need :-)

Argumentum ad ignorantium; Shifting the burden of proof by the religious

You cannot claim that "miracles exist unless someone proves that they do not exist."

You cannot claim that "souls exist unless someone proves that they do not exist."

You cannot claim that "angels exist unless someone proves that they do not exist."

You cannot claim that "deities exist unless someone proves that they do not exist."

This is a common argument from some believers. They argue that since the atheist can not prove that their supernatural beings can not be disproved, they exist. They are putting the burden on the atheists to prove their claims wrong, when they they haven't tabled any evidence for its existence. That is not how logic works. That is an argument from ignorance.

This is how logic works

X exists or is true because there is evidence for X

Okay, that's too easy. God exists because He has radically transformed the lives of literally billions of people in the world - the fruits, or evidences, of these transformations being verifiable and real.

Again, here's the magnificent result of you and your fellow atheists' 3000 year efforts to deny God - enjoy!:

Onus probandi – from Latin "onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat" the burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim, not on the person who denies (or questions the claim). It is a particular case of the "argumentum ad ignorantiam" fallacy, here the burden is shifted on the person defending against the assertion.
Argumentum ad populum (appeal to widespread belief, bandwagon argument, appeal to the majority, appeal to the people) – where a proposition is claimed to be true or good solely because many people believe it to be so.

Cutting and pasting Latin gibberish doesn't negate the fact I've provided what amounts to billions of evidences of real, human lives radically changed by a powerful, divine force.
There's good reason why those cast adrift in darkness like yourself are losing the war for the minds and souls of man - it simply takes too much faith to be an atheist :)

Can you show us some of the evidence that those radically changed lives had anything to do with a divine force, and not just the belief in one?

Just one. Out of the billions.

And are you saying that atheists have stronger faith than you do?

A stupid question from someone who likely has no interest in actually speaking to or studying the untold number of supernatural (and natural) experiences that have change so many lives.
I'm not your library, do what I did and investigate the evidences for and against God yourself, instead of parroting fellow lost individuals.
Knowledge is your friend, I suggest you invest a little time and energy and obtain some :)

A simple "No, I can't." would have sufficed.

I've been around for over 50 years, was born and brought up in a religious environment. Believe me, it would be in my best interest to believe, if there was any evidence.

So I've looked and listened, and studied, my entire life, and nobody has been able to come up with a shred of evidence, any more than you were able to here.

I have no problem with you believing things, based on nothing, because it's comforting to you. But you're only going to make a fool of yourself, as you did here, by trying to get in a rational argument for irrational things you believe on faith.

You claimed that billions of lives had been changed by supernatural powers. I asked you to show me one. You folded.

Your problem is you're trolling internet forums demanding people of faith to throw a few paragraphs your way that will prove God's existence. It's a coward's ploy, and you know it.

I live in Phoenix and would be honored to spend the hours or days needed to present the evidences I have diligently sought and found over my lifetime.

I've been around longer than you. I was born and brought up in a secular family. I came to my faith not by believing others, but by researching everything I could lay my hands on, and I'm still at it.

When you tell me you've "looked and listened, and studied, my entire life" I simply don't believe you. I don't doubt you've honed your skills at refuting believers from your fellow lost friends, family, or internet resources, but like most atheists I've engaged, I doubt you've seriously done in-depth studies of such things as secular and church history, statistical probability as related to Scriptural prophecy and macro evolution/creationism, demonology, manuscript evidences (both secular and church), and other related areas, as I have.

Along the way, like many I have been able to reconcile wonky teachings such as pre-trib rapture, the Antichrist, and other mistaught/misunderstood things that have become so pervasive in many of today's churches, as well as other errors being widely taught concerning end times theology (eschatology).

While I certainly have faith in God and His Son, I didn't get there by faith. I would again suggest this topic is too important not to spend the hours, months, or even years of your life in study to determine, FOR YOURSELF, the truth.

Asking you to back up a claim you've made makes me a troll and a coward? That's a very privileged and magical little world you live in.

Just grow up, and admit you were lying.

Okay, I'll type that up for you. While I'm at it, please do me a favor and explain quantum physics to me.

Don't act all upset, you know you're a troll. Enjoy the darkness, pinhead :)

I don't have a clue about quantum physics. If I'd claimed to have been an expert, that would have been an honest quid pro quo request on your part. It was another lie.

Funny how, at least on the internet, the most self-righteous and pious phony Christians are the most pathological liars, and the quickest to childish insults in place of a rational thought.

I'm not upset, I'm having fun. Enjoy your life (Oh, and that next one , too. Totally plan on that. **snicker**)

You got off our boyfriend to type THAT?
It's funny how, at least on the internet, godless, self-worshipping and pompous faux intelletuals are quick to make sweeping and bold declarations about subjects they actually know nothing about.
I've posted thousands of words in conversation with other atheists apparently more intelligent than you on this board. If you want to know what i think, go read them.
Enjoy your weekend :)

We're sharing a boyfriend now? I learn the most interesting stuff from crazy people on the internet.

Can you be more specific about this sweeping generalization I made about something I don't know about, or are you just lying again?

Yes, I skimmed over some of your conversations with other reality-based people. You got your ass handed to you several times here, and responded to facts and logic, and reasonable questions, by calling names, insulting, and telling other people to do your work for you.

You're a simple, superstitious child with an ego that's outgrown your brain.

Now why don't you at least try to answer some questions, honestly address some substance, or stop pestering adults with your idiocy?

You and I both know you're not looking for answers. You're just another scared, ignorant individual spending your empty life trolling forums, deligently attempting to lure as many fellow dim, lost souls to Hell with you.
Don't you ever ask yourself why you feel so compelled to spend so much of your time and energy on the God you claim doesn't exist? Or why the mention of the name Jesus provokes such vitriol and hate in you and those like you? The unholy drive you display in railing against God and His Son is most telling, pathetic, and very, very sad.
BTW, you've insulted me and called me many more names - I guess containing the darkness that dwells within you is sometimes hard to contain, yes? It's okay, I forgive you.
Take your medication and enjoy your evening,
PS: Say hi to your boyfriend for me :)

So, no specifics on your accusation? Another lie.

If I ask a question, I'm looking for an answer. Don't excuse your inability to provide one with some baseless idea about what "we" know. Just man up, and admit you're a liar.

If you can be specific about anything I'm scared or ignorant about, do it. Otherwise, it's just more of your name-calling.

If I'm doing anything "deligently", it's leading people to truth, not hell.

No, I don't ask myself why I spend a few minutes here or there talking about non-existent beings. There are a good number of people trying to pervert our country, and our constitution, based on these imaginary beings. If some of us didn't speak up, we'd end up like those middle eastern theocraies, where nobody is allowed to challenge the stone age cultists.

The name of Jesus doesn't provoke any hate in me, that's another lie from you. If he was a real person, I actually respect a lot of the words attributed to him. I only wonder why so many who pretend to follow him seem to be at odds with his teachings on most matters,

I don't rail against a thing I don't believe exists, another lie from you.

I tell the truth, if that insults you, not my problem. What names did I call you that weren't accurate?

I don't need the forgiveness of an evil, petty, lying Narcissist, thanks, and I don't take any mediations. You're just ranting like a lunatic.

And you closed with a "You're the gay!" joke. Youre a child, and an idiot. You just can't deal with how severely you were exposed as that here. If there really was a Jesus, and he showed up tomorrow, he would beat the crap out of a disgusting cretin like you for using his name in vain

Are you purposely channeling Satan, or is that the real you?
The bile that flows from you in your tireless quest to deny Jesus Christ painfully testifies as to who your father is. A little scary!
Sorry if I was wrong about the boyfriend, I wasn't making a joke and obviously have you confused with another gay atheist I was communicating with.

You avoided some questions there, Scooter. What a tangled web we weave.

I'm just telling you the truth. It probably feels like bile to you the way salt feels to a slug ( or to put in childrens' story terms you might understand, holy water to a demon).

Who are you suggesting my father is? And why is it scary to you?

Thanks for clearing up things. When you mentioned "our boyfriend", I was worried that you were fantasizing about threesomes involving me, and having another incident of not being able to separate reality from your imagination. Glad to know your gay three-ways are with two other people that I don't know.

Just looked over this thread again. Whooo, you took a beating. No wonder you're so hysterical. Hope the rest of your weekend goes better.

Wow, a little insecure, are we? Your bizarre and disjointed comments unfortunately don't say much for your mental state, but I have a very real feeling you already know that.

As for your father, he doesn't scare me in the least, nor do your desperate attempts to deny my father. I would suggest you're the one who should be terrified, that is, unless you're planning on living forever ;)

I'm sorry you apparently have nothing better to do on a Saturday than this - the fact you obviously have no life, combined with your spiritual and intellectual shortcomings must be awful. I'll pray for you :)

Fortunately, I do have better things to do, so must get back to them. Please feel free to continue commenting to yourself, if it gives you fulfillment and/or something to do!

I always love this part of a wingnut meltdown, the "You have no life!" desperate insult for posting on a Saturday... as the insulter posts on a Saturday. You were saying something about somebody's mental state?

We both realize you've given up on trying to have a rational discussion, and you're terrified of simple questions, but I'll ask some more, just for the fun of seeing you run away from them.

I'll even number them, just to highlight your predictable failure. I like to do that when delusional idiots on the internet get to the stage you're at.

1. You asked if I'm insecure. What prompted that? You're the one who can't seem to handle a real discussion, or back up any of your claims. Why would you ask me if I'm insecure? Don't be shy about getting specific.

2. Please point out a comment of mine that was bizarre or disjointed. Explain. Again, be as specific as you'd like.

3. You made a remark about who my father is, and said it was scary. I asked what you meant. You didn't answer, but now you say you're not scared. Does that seem a little mentally unbalanced to you?

4. I'm not terrified at all. I'm pretty happy. Are you going to get around to telling me what I should be terrified of, or are these vague ramblings all you have?

5. Nothing better to do on a Saturday. Trying to get some meat out of you, instead of the tap-dancing, insults and lies. You took the time to type that drivel, but you were obviously too busy to form a thought.

6. You wouldn't know about anybody's spiritual shortcomings, given your demonstrated dishonesty and anger issues here. I don't think I need to even address the "intellectual shortcomings" bit, as you haven't been able to engage anybody here who isn't in your cult without lying and name-calling. You haven't shown a sliver of intelligence.

7. If you're praying, that's for you, not me. I don't get anything from your childish hocus pocus.

8. Yes, I'm sure you have better things to do. That's obvious from your dozens of comments filled with ad hominems and BS here, and your constant avoiding of any real substance.

9. I'm not commenting to myself, I'm just doing my patriotic duty, as an American and a human being. Exposing the Idiocracy, and its enablers. ( That's you).

Sorry this whole thing didn't turn out the way you hoped it would. Maybe you can learn something from the experience.

LOL. Now you're really coming unhinged!
You've spent literally days tirelessly stalking me in a thread about the existence of God, which you don't even believe in, doing absolutely nothing but insulting me, in some kind of fantasy 'contest' where you keep going back and 'scoring' the (lack of) discussion. Are you really so demented as to not see how desperately crazy you're coming across?
I would never make this statement lightly, but that quiet voice you often hear in the middle of the night that tells you you're mentally unstable - you need to listen to it before you end up in a tower with a high-powered rifle, kill yourself, or a combination of the two. Seriously.
The good news is I prayed for your sanity last night in church! :)

Ah, the predictable next step in the meltdown. Ignoring all of the questions, and moving from the standard "You have no life! [because you're posting a comment on the same day that I am]! to "You're an unhinged stalker [because you're continuing to reply to my continued replies] !!"

That would be crazy even if everything else was equal. Of course, I'm catching you in lies and fallacies, asking you simple questions that you're afraid to answer, and you're doing nothing more than attempted insults and name-calling ( while somehow accusing me of that).

And all of this, while diagnosing me with mental problems. Can you see anything wrong here, Scooter?

No, I haven't spent days, either literally nor figuratively, tirelessly stalking you. Here's what actually happened, here in the real world.

Six days ago, you typed out an absurd, logically defective statement. I, along with a few others, pointed out to you how badly you had failed.

You never defended the faulty statement, but you didn't admit to it, or apologize for it. You just moved on to typing out hundreds and hundreds of words that were just as crazy and logically bankrupt.

And, once or twice a day, as you've added another loony reply to me, I politely come back and point out where you've lied, dodged, and/or stumbled and struggled with logic. Or "tirelessly stalking", in the abnormal mind.

If, at this point, your precarious mental state wasn't pretty well established, you added a closing confession, maybe a cry for help-

You told me there was some "good news"... that last night, you went to a special magic building, and you talked to somebody you've never met, an invisible entity. And you asked it for a favor. To make me not crazy.

Read that again, if you need to. Let it sink in.

Judging by the incredibly long reply (I read the first paragraph), I must have hit a nerve! At least you don't seem so angry today - you should consider that a good first step.
Okay, I'm returning to poolside now. Feel free to go back to your bong, torturing small animals, or whatever people like you do :-)

That first part, about you not reading my reply, is almost believable. Given what I've seen of you here, it would be possible that mental exhaustion or fear of the truth would have made you quit a little ways into a comment of a few paragraphs.

But we know you read it. Probably twice, maybe three times, looking for something you could latch onto to save face. You realized you couldn't answer anything, so you went to one of the next usualt steps, the "I must have hit a nerve!" gambit. No, not a nerve, just my funny bone. I'm having quite a chuckle watching your little neighborhood of make believe fall apart.

And you're still projecting your anger on me, as I amuse myself. Although I am keeping in mind that I may be crossing that line from "amusing" to "cruel", and your earlier fantasies about guns and towers. I won't push you too much farther.

Instead of addressing anything, you also resorted to one of my other favorites, the off-hand mention of returning to poolside, which falls into the "Oh, did I mention my fabulous pretend life?" category.

More likely; opening another bottle of generic vodka, and downloading some more kiddie porn in your squalid studio apartment, on the bad side of the tracks.

The bong and animal torture were a nice touch, too. I can almost see your tears through the internets. Have a nice week.

I was absolutely serous, I read the first paragraph. I have a very short attention span, so I'd appreciate it if you'd please communicate in several paragraphs or less. In order to humor you, I read all 28 paragraphs of this comment, and as usual, felt like I was reading a letter from a Special Olympics runner-up with emotional issues. I hope that doesn't sound too harsh, If so, it wasn't intentional.

I'm also sorry my mention of returning poolside stoked some further feelings of inadequacy in you - I know you already have a major problem in that area and certainly didn't mean to make it worse - I was just being truthful! Don't hate me because I'm tan.

Surf's up, Andy!
"My pool is as real as my God - Your friend, Scooter!"

http://i747.photobucket.com...

There are no invisible souls. There are no gods. People believing in supernatural beings doesn't prove anything. Sorry Latin is gibberish to you. They are the names of logical fallacies that you are falling into. Your map just proves that mankind is still crippled by superstition.

Interesting, on this very day, demons confess and fear Jesus Christ, yet you, in your glorious, self-worshipping brilliance deny Him. Oh, yeah, you probably don't believe in demons, either I'd guess.
I suggest you invest the months/years needed to actually investigate the evidences (or lack thereof) for God, His Son, and related entities as I have done nstead of trolling internet forums attempting to sound intelligent by throwing around ridiculous Latin phrases.
Secular and religious history, secular and church manuscript history, scientific statistical probabilities as they relate to Biblical prophecies and macro evolution/creation, the serious study of interdimensional entities, ufology, and demonology are good places to start. I dare you to then return and repeat your statements on a subject you obviously know nothing of :)

Wendy Kaminar pointed out 15 years ago in Sleeping With Extra-Terrestrials (1999) that people who believe in gods will also believe in psychics, and astrology, UFOs, demons, angels, inter dimensional entities, alien abductions, mind readers, palm readers, talking to the dead... etc etc. And the "ridiculous Latin phrases" are taught in every college logic course.

This actually made me LOL ( and I don't enjoy typing "LOL"), that your pointing out Scooter's logical fallacies was dismissed as "Latin gibberish".

He has a global map of fellow suckers! He's winning!

Wendy Kaminar lends as much value to this conversation as the idiotic Latin phrases.
I can't speak for others, but can tell you I personally only believe in things I've determined to be real - not by faith, but through exhaustive study using every means at my disposal. Your basic statements testify to the fact you haven't, which paints you as the person held captive to superstitions more so than I.
I've found the fundamental reason why most atheists do not want to delve too deeply into spiritual things is simply fear. The fear they may discover there is a God, that Satan is very real, that their spirit lives on after death. Scary things for the sinner who love his sins. I get it.

Can you provide objective evidence that even one of the approximately ten billion people who have lived and died have survived beyond death? Thought not.

Among atheists who have abandoned their beliefs after either studying or experiencing near death experiences was Sir Alfred Ayer, one of this age's most preeminent atheists.
There have been hundreds of documented incidents of clinically dead people describing details in operating rooms, accident scenes, etc. that they couldn't possibly have seen. Many have come to God through the realization their spirit is independent of their body.
Your desperate desire to believe you're your own god will be abruptly challenged when you pass from this dimension, and it will suck to be you.

Objective, reproducible evidence, peer-reviewed and published, please. I can provide hundreds of witness testimonies of UFO abduction. Meaningless without corroborating evidence.

Also, there are perfectly natural explanations for the sorts of experiences people report in NDEs, all of which involve perfectly natural brain activity.

El wrongo. 'Perfectly natural explanations' don't reconcile individuals accurately describing people, events, and things happening in their environment and even adjoining rooms and areas while they were clinically dead.

'Perfectly natural explanations' don't reconcile numerous, documented incidents of demonic possession where reliable witnesses (Catholic priests, Reverends, Pastors)
witnessed adults or children exhibiting super-human strength, speaking in foreign voices, invisibly, physically manipulating objects, and levitating in midair. (BTW, these demons respond to and are banished in the name of Jesus Christ - does that tell you anything?). Oh yeah, schizophrenic individuals DON'T LEVITATE (thought I'd save you the trouble).

These aren't the things of yesteryear or found only in a book. These are present day things that are very easy to investigate. Of course you won't, for fear you discover these things are real and testifyi to the presence of very real positive and negative supernatural entities.

So you'll have no problem, producing a video of someone levitating (other than David Blaine). As for describing things out of sight, a 2010 experiment using hidden images in a few dozen ORs in the US and UK produced no evidence for out of body experiences.

Do your own homework on demon possession. There are many well documented cases - that is unless you believe the Catholic priests are all lying in an organized attempt to bring you to God :)

As for NDEs, how does a single experiment negate the results of dozens, if not hundreds of actual cases? I'll help you here - it doesn't.

I'm just curious. why is it so important to you to deny God and His Christ? Atheists work tens harder at trying to pull people away from God than believers do at leading the lost to Him. Odd.

Prove that demons exist. We used to drill holes in the heads of the mentally ill to "let out demons". We now know better. The reason we object to your spreading myths is that it impacts people when they are treated with quackery, or denied rights, or discriminated against, based on your interpretation of your particular sect of your religion.