Thank you for writing this in response. This has given me a ton of things to think about which I have been going back and forth with for a few years now. Things are fitting together now. Thank you...again...

"This has given me a ton"

A Ton is a hefty load to carry.

:) That's okay. Anything is possible with God ;)

Even changing bread to flesh and wine to blood.

Terrific example, toughie

Walid. Great writing! I am very intrigued by the Eastern Orthodox Church. I've just begun looking into it thanks to many of the shoebat.com writings. I have a question for either you or Ted. What is the Eastern Orthodox position on the nation of Israel and how do they view the last days and the involvement of middle eastern nations?

Send me a phone number and I will delete it and be glad to call you.

Is it possible I can ask to? I learn so much from just this site but I would love to ask many questions as well.

Sure

May I also?

Of course Susan, especially you.

Okay, then me too. I have known Orthodox Christians in the past, but there is a lot I no longer remember.

If you're willing to give me the same info and will delete my e-mail, it's jannahcita@gmail.com. You could call if you wanted but it's harder for me to talk by phone because I have a crazy work schedule. But if you prefer to call, it's 813 843 5836.

I thought my response with my personal info would be read first before it was posted. But it posted immediately. I tried to delete it afterwards but could not. Anyway you can delete it? I don't want this out there for just anyone.

AMEN.

Ok Walid, here is the translation of the Church Slavonic hymn The Great Doxology from Matins service. Rudy you can correct me if I made a mistake.
This is a translation, of the hymn in the vid.

Slavonic
Slava v vishnih Bogu, i na zemli mir,
v chelovetseh blagovoleniye.
Hvalim Tia, blagoslovim Tia,
klaniayem Ti sia, slavoslovim Tia,
blagodarim Tia, velikiya radi slavi Tvoyeya.
Ghospodi, Tsariu Nebesniy, Bozhe Otche Fsederzhiteliu.
Ghospodi, Sine Yedinorodniy, Iisuse Hriste,
i Sviatiy Dushe.
Ghospodi Bozhe, Agnche Bozhiy, Sine Otech,
vzemliay greh mira, pomiluy nas;
vzemliay grehi mira,
priimi molitvu nashu.
Sediay odesnuyu Ottsa,
pomiluy nas.
Yako Ti yesi yedin sviat,
Ti yesi yedni Ghospod, Iisus Hristos,
v slavu Boga Ottsa. Amin
Na fsiak den blagoslovliu Tia
i vos’hvaliu imia Tvoye vo veki i vek veka.
Spodobi, Ghospodi, v den sey bez greha sohranitisia nam.
Blagosloven yesi, Ghospodi, Bozhe otets nashih,
i hvalno i proslavleno imia Tvoye vo veki. Amin.
Budi, Ghospodi, milost Tvoya na nas,
yakozhe upovahom na Tia.
Blagosloven yesi, Ghospodi, nauchi mia opravdaniyem Tvoim.
Blagosloven yesi, Ghospodi, nauchi mia opravdaniyem Tvoim.
Blagosloven yesi, Ghospodi, nauchi mia opravdaniyem Tvoim.
Ghospodi, pribezhishche bil yesi nam
v rod i rod.
Az reh: Ghospodi, pomiluy mia,
istseli dushu moyu, yako sogreshih Tebe.
Ghospodi, k Tebe pribegoh,
nauchi mia tvoriti voliu Tvoyu, yako Ti yesi Bog moy,
yako u Tebe istochinik zhivota;
vo svete Tvoyem uzrim svet.
Probavi milost Tvoyu vedushchim Tia.

Sviatiy Bozhe, Sviatiy Krepkiy, Sviatiy Bessmertniy,
pomiluy nas. (3x)
Slava Ottsu i Sinu i Sviatomu Duhu,
i nine i prisno, i vo veki vekov. Amin.
Sviatiy Bessmertniy, pomiluy nas.
Sviatiy Bozhe, Sviatiy Krepkiy, Sviatiy Bessmertniy,
pomiluy nas.

English,
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace,
Good will toward men.
We praise Thee, we bless Thee,
we worship Thee, we glorify Thee,
we give thanks to Thee for Thy great glory.
O Lord, Heavenly King, God the Father almighty.
O Lord, the only begotten Son, Jesus Christ
and the Holy Spirit.
O Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father,
who takest away the sin of the world have mercy on us.
Thou who takest away the sin of the world,
receive our prayer.
Thou who sittest at the right hand of the Father,
have mercy on us.
For Thou alone art holy,
Thou alone art the Lord, Jesus Christ,
to the glory of God the Father. Amen.
Every day I will bless Thee
and praise Thy name forever and ever.
Vouchsafe, O Lord, to keep us this day without sin.
Blessed art Thou, O Lord, God of our fathers,
and praised and glorified is Thy name forever. Amen.
Let Thy mercy, O Lord, be upon us,
as we have set our hope on Thee.
Blessed art Thou, O Lord, teach me Thy statutes.
Blessed art Thou, O Lord, teach me Thy statutes.
Blessed art Thou, O Lord, teach me Thy statutes.
Lord, Thou has been our refuge
from generation to generation.
I said: Lord, have mercy on me,
heal my soul, for I have sinned against Thee.
Lord, I flee to Thee,
teach me to do Thy will, for Thou art my God;
for with Thee is the fountain of life,
and in Thy light we shall see light.
Continue Thy mercy on those who know Thee.

Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal,
have mercy on us. (3x)
Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
both now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen.
Holy Immortal, have mercy on us.
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal,
have mercy on us.

Wow, this makes me love the word "liturgy". Why did I never hear that word for two decades going to church. But again, why did I never hear such wonderful symphony dedicated to God?

Liturgy. Saying that word could get me in a heap of trouble.

I have been getting myself in so much trouble from the slandering tongue that continually condemns me. But I thank the slandering tongue, for by it I began to see. Special thanks to CNN. It was only then that their slander had me open my eyes to search for the most slandered. And it was there were I found the suffering Christ.

Brother, problem is, that it is never translated as '' liturgy'' in English, so you did not see that Christ our true God acts as'' Liturgist'' His actions are those of a Priest, active in a liturgy.

Brother, it is perfect.

I had help from Fr Chris, we are teaching converts to sing in Slavonic.

Walid your teachings are hard. It scares the hell out of me. But I think it is for my good.

aversa,

If you recall when the bad servant with the one talent, he told Jesus "you are hard master", he hid the talent and did nothing. But it was simple, not hard, what does it take to invest one talent?

So true. Thanks.

Give us progress reports or else we will write harder articles ;-) just kidding.

Thanks Walid. Will do. And a Happy Thanks Giving to you and yours.

A hard truth vs a beautiful lie :)

Much meat, much delicious meat! As soon as I digest this I'm ready for part two!!! Perhaps your stand will be open tomorrow? Thank you!

We are open 24/7

Falafel, baklava, pasta and a shot of Russian vodka. Always a feast here!

yes its amazing, during my christian walk, I had so many questions, and most of the time when i approached a priest or a pastor or someone whom I felt was better versed in the Bible then I was, I always got the same response, " your putting your soul in danger, we should never question about things written in the Bible." it lead me to a dangerous position of beginning not to believe in GOD. but this Meat is very delicious, seasoned well and filling! great food.

For those that don't believe that Christians can have a literal mark, consider what the purpose this would serve. The Saints are going to return with Christ to defeat the Antichrist & his hordes of Muslims. There are, also, going to be the 7 sheppards or leaders whose soldiers will be alive. The living will need to be marked so they can prevent killing each other. This war will require targeted man to man killing through the world. It will be easy to know who to kill, because Muslims won't agree to be marked as being in the Lord's army. They can also be sure that they don't have jihadists in there midst when planning missions. Everyone must choose a side. Anyone not marked as belonging to Christ will be the enemy & must be killed, period.

Your encouragement is much appreciated Owen, God Bless.

Walid,

This was truly a priceless post! You hit on so many issues better than I could ever have. And again thank you for your candidness and soberness to keep us sober. Please continue to stretch and challenge us. It is no small thing for me to continue
to be challenged and look at my faith and see whether I am in the faith.

I am glad you have taken up this issue by starting with, “One issue is that so many are living in false sense of assurance of salvation.” One of my biggest struggles when I became a Christian, particularly when I first started attending a Baptist church, was the confidence of so many who were sure of their salvation. I think it was in the way they said it or affirmed it. It seemed to be so matter of fact, without any reverence for the one who saved them. I felt like I was the only one in the room who was not saved. Even though I accepted Christ as my savior, and earnestly desired to know him and seek his word, I never could have the feeling of the assurance so many confidently confessed. I found myself beginning to convince myself to just talk like them. But inside, there was always this unease. Why was I always (and still) on my face alone before God begging and pleading with him over my sin? Why do the passages on judgment send me back on my face before him? How come I could not have assurance like so many others? Yes, I know on whom I have believed. I know there is therefore now no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus. But why does judgment and the holiness of God strike me so hard? Am I missing something on assurance? I have recently had people tell me that because of the grace of Christ they just don’t even ask for forgiveness of sins anymore, that under the grace it is just covered, past, present and future. Am I missing something? Is my walk wrong when I feel I am confronted with the scriptures that say “confess your sin” or ”don’t be easily hindered by sin” etc? Anyway, I’ve only made it through the first paragraph and these are the thoughts I immediately had.

So thanks for giving me some assurance in stating, “The way I apply wisdom is in reverse; in anything, there are always two groups, one who always thinks they have not done what is right, continually repents because they think they are not pleasing to God, these are more likely to enter heaven.”I never want to have a false sense of humility, but it is a narrow way, yes people can be cut off, people do have a false sense of security and yes, I get way less sleep than many people because I have some much of Christ I want to search out in knowing these precious jewels and how they apply to me. Oh the riches and the depths of Christ. Paul was clear; we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. I will not give up my fear and trembling to any false sense of security, psycho-babble, or people telling me I worry too much. TOO MUCH IS AT STAKE from the way I see it!

I know this may be an isolated issue, but when you said, “the Orthodox Russians are accused of being “heretic” followers of the Russian Gog” I just would like to point out one issue I’ve become aware of lately. I know it may be an isolated issue, but I am confident it will work itself out. My family and I hosted a missionary from Central Asia (protestant) we worked with in 2009. The Muslim run government wants to dismantle and do away with all “unregistered” churches, and to be registered a church must have at least 500 members and re-register every year. Of course, this is a direct attack on Protestant/Evangelical churches that cannot boast such registered numbers in a Muslim nation that is 97-98% Muslim. However, the Muslim government has said they want to work with the Russian Orthodox Church there and can “co-exist” with them. The missionary stated they (and others)
have petitioned the Orthodox Church to help stand up for them and assist them and the Orthodox Church refuses and in some instances does not even like them. I wonder why the Muslims want to co-exist with the Orthodox Church but eradicate the protestant churches. When I say it will work itself out, it is because I think soon the Orthodox Church will realize the Muslims have no plans to work with them and will begin to persecute them as soon as they eradicate the Protestant churches. Our missionary partner will attempt to meet with the Orthodox Church when he departs the U.S. He is hoping to at least understand first why the Orthodox church is refusing to provide them aid and assistance. I prayed with him and told him that perhaps he can point out to them what is happening to the Protestants can easily happen to the Orthodox once they are gone and that they are partners in the same fight and can work to assist each other. In some way, some of my remarks on how the help has come from your site by coming to understand a little more of the Copts and the Orthodox and how they are facing persecution in Egypt. So thanks, but I thought this was an interesting development their country just passed in the last few weeks and to which the missionaries must return to deal with.

In closing, you said, “I have met with the most prominent and influential church leaders in the world.”I’ve told you before it’s the reason I really enjoy your site. That despite this, you continue to make yourself available to nobodies, and common place people. That is so impressive.

'' I wonder why the Muslims want to co-exist with the Orthodox Church but eradicate the protestant churches.''
The Orthodox is the National Church in Russian history and identity and therefore it is the state with power. The Muslims touch the Orthodox the Russian army will punish them.
Protestantism to the Orthodox is a heresy. The catholic church is far closer in liturgy and practice and they are punished by the state, protestantism is a far worse heresy in their eyes, it is of the devil.
The Russians weigh worth by suffering and the Orthodox was refined in suffering. The Orthodox do not change.

Problem however is that the country from which this missionary is from is a former Soviet bloc country and therefore has its own functioning government and military. Yes, to some extent, perhaps the Russians would ultimately step in should that happen in this country. However, as it stands, Russia to an extent stays out of it.
Yes, politically, many in the country want to continue to stay under Russia or align with them because economically Russia is much stronger and more affluent that the "Stan" countries. However, my concern was that when the Muslims told the government they want to co-exist and work with the Orthodox church, is that true? My concern was that once the Protestant churches were gone, the Orthodox church would be next. My hope was that the Orthodox Church would see they are more closely aligned with Protestantism in belief than they are with Islam.

No, The Russians are hard on those the faraway. The Orthodox is the state, they attack the Orthodox and they get the state, protestants to the Russians are a bag of farts, they just smell bad, to a Russian it would be like leaving your holy mother and replacing her with a prostitute. Take my word for it in the Russian's mind protestants are heretics or worse, suffering is a key to Russians, protestants use verses to avoid suffering. Muslims told the government they want to co-exist and work with the Orthodox church, is that true? Yes. Because the Russians will make them eat their young otherwise.

Only Western Protestants use the Word to prevent suffering. But to sum up all Protestants as doing that shows that the Russian Orthodox church has no knowledge of the millions of Protestants in Asian countries (and hunreds of Western Protestant missionaries) who have indeed suffered horrificly for their faith in Christ and came forth triumphant, even though it cost them their very lives.

Ah, Vinny, your comments are always so well thought out, orderly and well presented. If only I could achieve your coherency.

Thanks Rod. We are all in this together. I hope my life and walk is orderly and well presented. This of course is far greater in the Lord's sight of what he wants from us. Yes, a heart that is given to him and a tree that bears the fruit of what our heart possesses. Oh that great scripture from Christ that out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. It is not what goes into a man that defiles him but what comes out of a man that defiles him. These are the real challenges for me. Thanks for being a fellow partner in the faith!

"I will not give up my fear and trembling ... I worry too much." I guess I will never make a good Dr. Phil ;-)

While your friend does good preaching to Muslims, I always wonder why the persistence by the Evangelicals to send missionaries to Russia? Why not Sudan? Kabul? Mosul? Karachi? Somalia? Tell me Vinny, why? Why the most focus of the Evangelical is where there are Orthodox? What is the purpose of saving the saved?

Ok, I can see the counter argument: they are not saved.

Okay, but even assuming that the Orthodox was "not saved", still yet, why not Sudan, Kabul, Mosul, Karachi, and Somalia?

But now when I look at the most hated, the "evil Jesuits", why did they go places that were worse than Sudan, Kabul, Karachi, Mosul and Somalia.

Too many issues, but perhaps, listen to that Russian liturgy and see Steve's translation, above. Keep me up to date on your healthy worries.

Also, let me know your thoughts on what I wrote McEwen above.

"I always wonder why the persistence by the Evangelicals to send missionaries to Russia? Why not Sudan? Kabul? Mosul? Karachi? Somalia? " that isn't true. Samaritans purse is in every one of those regions. I don't like that every topic is pinning Christian against Christian. Totally wrong and disturbing to me and sad.

Samaritan Purse is a relief organization, I am discussing Missionaries. I am simply asking: Why is it important to evangelize Orthodox?

Actually it was I who was trying to stop "pinning Christian against Christian".

Here, let me explain. When we convert Orthodox we are sheep stealing, thats all. So I am saying stop it, evangelize Muslims instead.

You see Kathy, no matter what I say, the attack is on the corner guised as "correction" and the snappy comment is easy to write without thinking truly what the other person is trying to say.

Good day.

The organization's mission statement states that the organization seeks to meet the spiritual and physical needs of people suffering from war, poverty, disaster, disease, and famine, with the purpose of global missionary work attendant on humanitarian aid. The organization aims at service for the church worldwide to propagate "the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ

Its not a missionary outfit, its a support the needy with both material and spiritual support for the "suffering" its not a missionary in a sense of a preaching ministry, but why are we discussing this when you totally missed my point and didn't even address them. You desire to enter a debate over Samaritan's Purse, an organization that is fine by me? Stop discussing Samartian Purse which has no baring with the points I made. This type of dialogue ends up spinning and spinning to no where because you do not understand the point. Should we argue for the sake of arguing? Your charge of us " pinning Christian against Christian" is simply false without any basis. Debating theology and disagreeing on issues of theology or criticizing theology is not wrong but accusing as such of "divisive" is.

You refuse to dialogue on the point, so lets kindly stop and move on. In other words, you need to discuss the major evangelization efforts of both spheres of Christianity which includes some research, lets say the 10-40 window and such. Do you know much about the 10-40 windows?

I remember the days when they talked about the “unreached by the Gospel 10-40 Window,” which the majority refrain from entering since it is virtually hostile territory, a territory that was all Christianized once-upon-a-time by Catholics of all creatures.

Fact is, Islam had conquered the once Christianized 10-40 Window and even wanted more, Europe itself, the center of their heritage which they proclaimed as the future devil and Antichrist. They knew nothing about the Battle of Lepanto, Battle of Tours, The Battle of Vienna, and The Battle of Malta—wars to defend Europe from Islam—since all these were Catholic-Islamic wars.

Are you telling me that shedding such light on ignorance is "pitting Christian against Christian"?

Or is it perhaps you simply decided you don't like us?

What is it? I am trying to be reasonable with you.

“ Yes,
but why are we discussing this when you totally missed my point and didn't even
address them.’ you
say things that are not true that I proved to you that are false that with the
action word “evangelicals” and the other words you use, catholic. orthodox,
protestant and so on etc. on one hand you are calling for unity but showing to be resistant to other Christians by pointing
out your opposed views. Debating theology is ok but don’t expect
unity100% not when you point to other Christians with denominations as higher
and lower, Jesus said “ why do you try to remove the speck from your brothers
eye when there’s a beam in your own” so... Samaritans purse is both Missionary
and Evangelical and are everywhere in the 10 40 area. As far as
Evangelizing Muslims, I’m all for it, and there are Christians doing that. we are
the body of Christ, Christian's one!!! not Catholic, Protestants and so
on. it bothers me when you point a critical finger at denominations that are not Catholic or Orthodox. not right to me.

Are you a pre-tribber mid-tribbe or post-tribber?

Assume you had all 3 views on this post and I would lets say be a post-tribber, I would take my position on what I think and believe. I would argue for my position all I can. How does this constitute being anti-unity? I would try to correct the pre-tribber and at times congregate with the ones who view my views. I happen to like Coptic views, so I am closer to the eastern church. But I happen to also like Evangelical interest on Prophecy, Israel and such.

Yet you seem to have a problem with that regardless that I have no problems with you sharing your views. When did I ever try to say that you are "divisive" because you disagreed with someone? Never.

Truth is, its that you are getting with me on a discussion that is somewhat becoming unnecessary. I tried to tell you this to no avail.

And who said that unity means agreement on every theological aspect? Democrats and Republicans ought to unite when there is a war, but continue to disagree and argue when no war exists. Unity does not mean we force everyone into one party, though each has a right to influence the others, it does not mean that the arguments constitute dis-unity and divisiveness. The ones who say it is (you) simply wants to accuse, falsely. You can't see this and neither can I show it to you even though you realize it. Its you being stubborn. Thats all. Its the spirit of arguing.

Your welcome to point fingers at any denomination. Am I stopping you? No. In fact, I welcome it. But this does not mean I hold my views in order to please you either and vise versa.

"Are you telling me that shedding such light on ignorance is "pitting Christian against Christian"?" you are telling me that Christians who are not Catholic or orthodox do not evangelize when you said ""I always wonder why the persistence by the Evangelicals to send missionaries to Russia? Why not Sudan? Kabul? Mosul? Karachi? Somalia? " I gave you proof they do, whether it's not up to your par, I don't know, but they do. why are you being so thin skinned with my reply?
“I happen to like Coptic views, so I am closer to the eastern church. Yet you
seem to have a problem with that” No I don’t have a problem at all with that.
you are turning the table on that. that is my point to you when you say
evangelicals are not bringing the gospel to non Christians in the mid east and
Africa, that isn’t true. you are wrong, you are upset with
my reply, and that’s fine, but the facts are facts. whether someone is catholic
or orthodox (coptic) or protestant, etc.I don’t judge their well meaning efforts
on helping with aid or spreading the gospel, it’s all good in my book! and I’m not being
stubborn, just giving my point of view, you yourself said it does not mean that
the arguments constitute dis-unity.I just differ with some stuff you post. but
agree on your zeal for Christianity and your wonderful insight of the book of
revelation, stunning!!
"Or is it perhaps you simply decided you don't like us?" perhaps maybe it is you who is disliking? I don't dislike you. have a happy thanksgiving.

"you say evangelicals are not bringing the gospel to non Christians in the mid east and Africa, that isn’t true. you are wrong, you are upset with my reply"

Thats not what I said, never even mentioned Africa. Evangelicals are doing some great work in Africa and has been the prime mover and shaker there. Your putting words in my mouth, its probably by accident. I was talking about the Muslim nations which I mentioned.

And I was never "upset" by your reply either. Ever wonder why I continued my dialogue with you? Folks that I am upset with I usually stop talking to, but I have seen your previous comments and you were a positive and pleasant person to talk to and still are.

You brought Samaritan Purse as evidence in which I argued that within the realm of comforting Christians who are persecuted, they provide spiritual support to THESE CHRISTIANS. This is not major evangelism to Muslims is it? You insisted and still insist it is as the core evidence for your argument which cannot be accepted by standards of major evangelism.

Have a nice Thanksgiving :-)

This has been stressed over and over in Protestantism, "Stop sheep stealing!" Yes, that is not true "missionary" work. We need to be reaching the lost.