Spent 12 years at Catholic schools in Dayton Ohio. Grew up across the alley from Notre Dame Nuns and across the street from the priest. From what I witnessed the nuns did the bulk of the work within the church. Dropped out at 18 I am now 62. Recently spent an enormous amount of time at a nursing home in Dayton that my WWII father was in that had previously been a convent. One whole wing of the privately run nursing home is filled with retired Precious Blood Sisters in their 80's 90's and some over 100. I have spent literally hours talking with some of these sisters about why they became nuns, Vatican II, politics in the church. They have talked about the power struggles between the male hierarchy in the church. Also conversations about the protection of pedophiles within the church. When will the women within the church get the honor and power they so deserve?

EE: The pedophiles dilemma is not only in the priesthood. If you compare it to other vocation in secular society, the percentages are similar or less , but still very unfortunate, Pedophilia is rampant with public schools. How many times do we hear weekly of teachers having sex with their students?
http://www.themediareport.c...

     While I don't blindly accept your statistics, I think you're missing some important points:

1) Two wrongs don't make a right (nor do they "excuse" each other). So what if more teachers (percentage wise) molest their students than priests do their parishioners? (Including adults.) None of that should happen!

2) The two groups are different. Priests, after all, are supposed to be "holy" men, with a "higher" calling. They are (at least in Prettylady!'s view) the "enforcers" of the "infallible" teachings of the Church. Shouldn't they (and the institution they serve) be held to a higher standard?

3) How many of those "other vocations in secular society" engaged in an organized campaign to cover up these crimes (even intimidating the victims and their families into silence)? And if such things did happen in those "other vocations", how high in their hierarchy did it go? (The evidence is increasing that it may have reached the very top of the Church.) If a secular organization behaved in such a way, it would be prosecuted under RICO as a Racketeering Influenced and Corrupt Organization. Shouldn't "Christ's Church" be held to the same standard as the Mafia?

     This sorry business is a glaring example of a TRUTH one normally hears in connection with political criminality: it's not the crime that "gets you", it's the cover up!

These 3 points are exactly why this abuse has been so very deeply disturbing..

Power? Power to do what? Who says our sisters are not honored? Prove that, friend.

the leadership meetings at a Vatican are 100% men?

The leadership on Nuns are 100% women. What is wrong with that?

are all Catholics 100% men?
why do all Catholics have 100% representation and leadership from 100% men?

BAM!

Why did Jesus have 12 Apostles, all men with Peter being the first pope? Would you consider him a sexist? Gee and I'm sure, I think you knew about that.

are you comparing the catholic leadership to Jesus?

Not comparing Catholic Leadership to Jesus. Just asking you why Jesus did not have any women among his 12 apostles?

is that relevant? to today?

Nobody said they were. I was just answering your previous statement.

and you failed to grasp the point about why people object to this sexist organizational structure

bam! thanks for playing

You got a strange sense of humor dude. I wasn't playing.

A convenient hiding place for homosexuals and pedophiles.
Martin Luther tried to Reform the RCC Church.
It was needed then and is still needed.
But.
Too late.
The longest, largest institutionalized child sex abuse
ring in human history.
Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Indeed. One of Martin Luther's biggest objections to the Roman Catholic church was its imposition of celibacy on its priests. In Russia, there has been no child abuse scandal because priests are allowed to marry there.

One of the motivations was more money.
No wives and children to care for.
More money for the Vatican.

Dave, do you have a reference?

Precisely. No heirs, so property went to the church.

Kind of hard to get accurate news if at all reported from the Russian Orthodox News.

That's the kind of jingoism I expect from you. You haven't heard of it, you have no data to present- certainly not on the scale of the world-wide RC priest sex-abuse scandal, so, since it's Russia, it must be happening there. I could substitute Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria and the US as countries where there are Eastern Orthodox priests, and I doubt they're any better at covering up their sins than the RC church has been. There is certainly corruption within the Russian Orthodox church in Russia, especially since Putin decided he's suddenly a big Christian and cheerleader for the Church, but that corruption is related to money and political power.

Prove there is a link between celibacy and child abuse. Child abuse far more often in the secular world.

Sports institutions are places where abuse occurs too. These are now looking to the Catholic church on how to prevent it.

I didn't say there was a link between celibacy and child abuse. What I do say is that a man who is willing to commit himself to a life without sex with an equal partner is likely to be predisposed to sexually abusing children. Apparently, sex with a child is more forgivable than sex with an adult woman.

This is silly at best and bigoted at worse, friend, we are done.

This is one of the most offensive things I've ever seen in my life. Shame on you. Change your life.

Ok, I edited to to say a life without sex with an equal partner, instead of a life without sex with a woman. I guess the first version was inadvertently homophobic-sounding. I bet you're still offended, though.
"Shame on you. Change your life."
Piety is so very comical.

What if someone were to say what you said about Jews or blacks. But catholic priests,? No problem. You have said nothing but cruel things to me and I don't interact with people that treat people like that, good day, friend

     Ah, but is that the reason Luther objected? And I'd like to see some backup for your claim that there's no child abuse there. (Maybe they're just better at covering it up?)

     I don't deny that celibacy might be part of the problem, but as Art has pointed out, child abuse is hardly unknown in other professions - ones where there is no requirement of celibacy.

http://thedianerehmshow.org...

" Ah, but is that the reason Luther objected."
I don't know; I just know that he opposed it as forcing something "unnatural".
I can't vouch for the accuracy of this quote, but here it is, anyway. The internet is replete with Martin Luther's quotations opposing the requirement of celibacy on priests.

Luther wrote of the Catholic Church’s leaders: “They were completely unjustified in forbidding marriage and in burdening the priesthood with the demand of continual celibacy. In doing so they have acted like . . . tyrannical, unholy scoundrels, occasioning all sorts of terrible, ghastly, countless sins against chastity, in which they are caught to this day.”

Here's a link to the above.
http://humanismbyjoe.co/cle...
" I'd like to see some backup for your claim that there's no child abuse there."
You're usually a more careful reader. Please note, I didn't say it never happens, and I didn't say it is unknown in other professions. It has not risen to the level of scandal in other professions, and the trust and reverence with which Catholic children are taught to regard priests isn't paralleled in other professions, including teachers and coaches. The priests are the connection between those children and God, after all. The frequency of sexual abuse by priests is probably higher than most other professions, and it has been covered up at the highest levels in the Roman Catholic hierarchy.
Since you linked to Art's post, I'll respond to it here. Priests have been sodomizing boys at a rate that isn't even comparable to school teachers' having sex with under-age students. I do not see the two crimes as morally equivalent. That is a subjective judgment that may not be shared by others.The closest moral equivalent I can think of would be Jerry Sandusky's crimes against boys on the Penn State campus.

      Sorry, my bad. I meant was child abuse (or the risk of it) the reason for his objection. I know he opposed celibacy (for the reasons you mention, among others), though I'm not sure that was part of his original 95 Theses. (I'm no scholar of Luther.)

     You're wise to be skeptical of Internet quotations. Often they turn out to either be bogus, or misattributed. As a general rule I avoid such "sources" unless: 1) the webpage includes some reference to where the quote comes from (as in: Letter of A to B dated 1/1/1, etc.), along with an indication of where a copy of that can be found (such as a link to a reliable website, like the Library of Congress for example, or a published book); or 2) the website is itself reliable (for another example, for Jefferson quotes I often use the Historic Monticello website). Even when I rely on Wikipedia, it's more a "down and dirty" source than a scholarly one, and it's mainly useful for having source links one can use to begin real research.

     Your saying there's no "child abuse scandal" there at least implies that there's no scandal because there's no child abuse. (Especially when taken in context of the overall thread.) So, "careful reading" isn't an issue on my part.

      And I only mentioned "other professions" simply to point out (as Art had done, and as I explained) that the absence of child abuse (or "high incidence" of it) in those professions casts doubt on celibacy being the sole cause of such problems, or even the main one.

     As for why it hasn't "risen to the level of scandal in other professions", I've offered by own explanation of why that might be so, as well as recognizing the key differences between those professions and being a member of the clergy.

http://thedianerehmshow.org...

     Again, my bad. I forgot that when you click on the link to Art's Comment, my reply to it won't appear with it. (Another irritating feature of the Disqus system.) Now that' I've provided a link to the reply, it should be clearer what I meant. As you'll see I raised many of the same points you just did.

P.S. - And though I didn't debate or dispute his "statistics" as you did, neither did I accept them. I suspect yours are more accurate.

The longest, largest institutionalized child sex abuse
ring in human history.

This is offensive. Prove it.

1238 the pope had married priest put in prison and wives and children sold a slaves.
1519 pope had naked boys jumping out of party cakes.
Celibacy provides hiding place with jobs, food, housing for Pedophiles.
Celibacy does not cause Pedophilia is provides a target rich environment, with position and authority.

     Oh, please. That's a distortion, exaggeration, and oversimplification. It would be like me pointing out that Luther was a raging Anti-Semite, and claiming that the Protestant faith was the second largest, longest, institutionalized ring of Jew-haters and murderers in human history.

     Should I wish "good riddance" to that faith too?

Marriages. My father was divorced in the late 40's married my mother in late 50's. This meant they had the label of being excommunicated by the Catholic church. Yet they sent all four children to Catholic schools, made us go to church, filled the coffers of the church with guilt money...lots of it. What hypocrites the hierarchy of the church is and continues to be in so many ways. Very willing to take the money of those that they had excommunicated ( a hellish term for me growing up). Sick

And I guess that is why you "Dropped Out" when you were 18 yrs old.

     Sorry, but what's the Church supposed to do? Check the "status" of every person who puts money in the collection plate, or the donation box?

     I may disagree with excommunication (particularly for the thing you mentioned), but as a Jew it's none of my business. Neither is the Church's willingness to accept donations from your parents. It seems to me that they should have "left the Church". Have you ever asked why they didn't?

Listening to this I hear so much talk about voting and polls and policy. This is secular talk. Secular means temporal. Changing. Jesus said, I'm god. Imagine if one of poor Diane's guests said, "well, I'm god so I guess I'm right" we would laught at them. Ooo, but what if that person went on to gain followers, thousands of them, that believed that this guy, who claims to be god is who he says he is. That person would be very dangerous.

That's jesus. Maureen fielder wants to place jesus in the same category as deeppoc chorpra or Emily post.

If anyone cares to read about him in the gospels Jesus must be approached in three ways: he was an insane crazy person who deserves sympathy (like maureen) because he said he was god. Two, he is a demon. Or three:

He is who he says he is. And you must worship him.

Maureen needs to start her own church if she is so oppressed by Jesus.

      Actually, didn't Jesus deny being a god, several times? Indeed, while on "trial" (if we can dignify those sham proceedings, whose accounts are pure fiction, with such a title) didn't he respond to the charge that he was the Son of God by saying "It's you who say that"?

      By the way, you may have "stumbled into the truth" (as John McLaughlin, a good "conservative" Catholic, is wont to say). That's why Jesus was crucified! (Assuming he ever existed.) It said so right on the placard used to explain his "crime". You know: "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews". For the Romans that was a threat to their power, and was treason!

      (And the possible explanation for the misleading, inconsistent, and in many places just dead wrong and deceitful, so-called "Gospel" accounts include far more than your alternatives.)

      In any case, the Church is run by mere mortals, based on their interpretation of a 2,000 year old book, and their misinterpretation of a 4,000 year old book. Plenty of room for fallibility there.

P.S. - Did you know it was the Papal claim of infallibility that led Lord Acton to remark: "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"? Ain't it da truth!

P.P.S. - By the way, Jefferson didn't believe Jesus was a god. Indeed, he denied the man ever claimed to be one!

I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every HUMAN excellence; and believing he never claimed any other.

- Letter to Doctor Benjamin Rush (4/21/1803) - The Life and Selected Writings of Thomas Jefferson (Random House 1972) page 567. Emphasis by Jefferson on the word “human”.

      Do a little research and you'll discover he wasn't the only Founder who thought so.

In any case, the Church is run by mere mortals, based on their interpretation of a 2,000 year old book, and their misinterpretation of a 4,000 year old book. Plenty of room for fallibility there.

Not to mention the book was written by primitive peoples for barbarians in a time when those peoples believed there to be four "elements", earth, wind, fire and water, and now thousands of years later we're suppose to take and apply these writings as literal.

Keep in mind how the bible says it's better to boff your brothers wife than to rub one out.
Would make for interesting holidays, Eh?
.

Those "mere mortals" inspired by God. But then if your Agnostic or Atheist you would not understand it.

"book written by primitive people", you know nothing about the early leaders of the Church. Guess you have no knowledge of St Paul or his background. I would highly suggest that you read a synopsis about him before make some uninformed statements.

1. Fourteen of the 27 Books in the New Testament was written by him.

2. He studied at " school of Gamaliel."The Hillel school was noted for giving its students a balanced education, likely giving Paul broad exposure to classical literature, philosophy, and ethics

      Even an Atheist and Agnostic should be able to appreciate the difference between being religious and being "primitive" or "barbarian". Sadly, Anti-Theists can't. Why? Because they are just as blind in their prejudices and ideology as those they complain about (the Fundamentalists and Literalists), and assume every religion and every religious person must be of that stripe.

P.S. - Time to define terms. For me an Atheist is simply someone who doesn't believe in religion or a god. They are non religious, but not anti. Anti-Theists take "the next step beyond", actively oppose all religious beliefs, and seek to "convert" everyone to their views.

      Excuse me, but those "barbarians" (the Jews) were the first people to outlaw human sacrifice, to enjoin care and compassion for the less fortunate and "the stranger among you". Who declared that "love they neighbor as thyself" was one of the highest commandments. (There are more than just 10 you know.) Perhaps they weren't as "knowledgeable" as we are, but then again the track record of "modern times" (say the past century or two) has much to be ashamed of.

     Oh and you are confusing the Jews with the Greeks, who were the ones who came up with that "four elements" theory. (Not all of them, of course, and they may have gotten the idea from the Egyptians or Phoenicians.)

     As for Christian times - well I'd say the Sermon on the Mount ain't a bad standard on which to measure your life, and while Christians have done great harm in history (who hasn't?), they've also done great good!

     Try to remember that not every religious person is a literalist or a fundamentalist. (In fact, I doubt the majority of Christians are - Jews certainly aren't.)

     Not sure where you got that bit about "boffing" versus "rubbing out". I suspect you're combining and conflating two entirely different parts of the Bible! (Something Fundamentalists do all the time, applying what I call the "Chinese Menu" school of interpretation: one from Column A, and . . . .)

A few months of happy talk from the current elected pope
does not erase history.
The pope spent decades in Argentina covering up the
sexual abuse of children.
The destruction of the RCC church is the best alternative.
Keep up the good works.

Once again can you give a reference?

bishops accountability org
Long list of victims and perpetrators and the accusations against the current pope.
But will Argentina ever allow the truth to be exposed?

The truth about bishops accountability org. Anti-Catholic and Decade old cases.

http://www.themediareport.c...

The current victims only go back to the 1940s;
because the previous victims are dead.
1800
1700
1600
1500
Criticizing bad acts is not anti. it is pro good.

Your right.

Attend Mass Rape a Child Save a Soul.
Burn people alive to Save their Soul.
30 Yrs War, which failed to regain the monopoly in
Western Europe.
Two faith based initiatives of the RCC Church that have
proven to be bad business practices.
The RCC church’s self-destruction
is a joy to watch.