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rwu • 6 years ago

HK protesters has legitimate grievances, but they are primary economic in nature. Unfortunately the CIA, doing what it does best, has infiltrated the protest and turned it into a political stunt. We, the HKers, have to refocus back to the economic issues and ignore all the noises created by Western media.

Behind the facade of laissez-faire economy, HK actually has one of the most unfair economic system in the world. To begin with HK has a regressive tax system. Yes, on the surface HK has a flat income tax but income tax is a small part of HK gov's revenue, the bulk of tax revenue comes from land sales. The HK gov has a monopoly on land supply and it charges exorbitant amount for building plots. Since the middle-class and the poor spend far greater portion of their income on housing, and since expensive housing is due to gov land monopoly, the tax system is regressive.

HK also has some of the loosest foreign labor control policy in the world. From household helpers to waitress to construction workers to office clerks to managers, foreign workers are everywhere. When you have no foreign labor control you have unlimited labor supply, and when you have unlimited labor supply going after limited amount of jobs the wages collapse, the big businesses and the rich benefits but the working class suffers. Imagine if the US opens the Mexican border and grants unlimited H1B work visas, what will happen to the US labor market? And now imagine China alone has 10x the population as Mexico and HK is smaller than NYC, and HK's working class has to compete against such influx of foreign labor.

We have so many legal and illegal foreigners in HK that there are more babies born in HK every year to non-HK parents than babies born with at least one HK parent!

Foreigners, legal and illegal, not just disrupted the labor market they also put severe stress on HK's healthcare, school, transportation, and housing systems. HK's ultra liberal judges has ruled that as soon as an illegal landed in HK s/he has the same right to HK's very generous welfare as full HK citizens. Imagine if the US has this type of policy all the illegals can collect benefits from day one...

All the illegals should be turn back. We already have more legal foreigners than we can handle in HK we simply can't handle any more. Before 1997 some of the illegals came to HK due to political reasons (my parents came to HK in the 70s because of that). But now HK is part of China the only reason illegals still come to HK is economic reasons, and that does not justify right to asylum.

In Mainland China, villagers cannot easily move to cities, and even if they do they will not enjoy the same benefits as city residents. Why can't HK do the same?

All of these problems actually benefit the rich HKers and their big companies tremendously. And this is extremely unfair to the regular HKers. And this corrupted/ twisted economic system is what needs to be fixed. Democracy is not the solution because if you look at the US those who got elected are either part of the rich or owned by the rich, besides Beijing won't allow that anyway. HK protesters should demand Beijing's assistance in transiting to a more fair, more working class friendly economic system- this is something that Beijing can and will be willing to do. And this is something that will actually make a big difference to the daily lives of the majority of HKers.

Chris • 6 years ago

Agreed. There are legitimate reasons to protest, but they have been hijacked by political extremists.

The funny part is that one country, two systems is allowing this extreme free market to flourish. If HK was absorbed into the mainland system, many of the problems facing HKers could be dealt with. As it is, these issues will have to solved through the HK political system.

It's nice to see a comment from a HKer which is well thought out, and not anti-mainland. Keep spreading your voice and encourage others who think like you to do the same.

rwu • 6 years ago

While no political system is perfect, China's system does have its unique qualities. In China national interests are above big business interests, but in many democratic countries its the other way around- big businesses and their billionaire shareholders fund political campaigns and basically own the politicians.

Years ago, Exxon Mobile CEO Lee Raymond was asked about building more U.S. refineries to protect the economy and consumers from fuel shortages. Raymond's response was this: "I'm not a U.S. company, and I don't make decisions based on what's good for the U.S." I cannot imagine the CEO of Petro China would say something like that.

During the subprime mortgage crises the total amount of troubled loan was around $500B, the US gov could simply print $500B and refinance all those troubled loans. But instead the US gov used this opportunities to give big businesses $5T interest free loans through several rounds of QEs (and saddled the Americans taxpayers with another $5T of debt). As a result the top 1% are at least US$30T richer now compare to right before the crises while the median household net worth decreased.

For at least the last decade the US median per capita real (i.e. after inflation) income decreased by avg 1% a year, while the real GDP increased by avg 3% a year. That's a cumulative gap of 50% lost income growth which the top 1% have stolen from the bottom 99%.

China's real median income growth has always kept up with overall GDP growth, which is why Chinese median income tripled in the last decade, and more than tripled the decade before. The whole society, from the poorest to the wealthiest, share the economic growth proportionally. This is much better than "only the wealthy gets wealthier while everybody else gets poorer" situation in both the US and HK.

USofA • 6 years ago

typical CCP response..
just point to the good old USA as always for ALL YOUR OWN PROBLEMS..

ITookADumpInYourDataPool • 6 years ago

Oh, you mean the agency that got busted in Germany in a pretty public way, and even had their clown arrested with a fake wig and everything has somehow mysteriously and secretly caused an uprising that just naturally attracted hundreds of thousands of people who otherwise wouldn't think naturally of their own well-being?

Get real, wumao. You don't live in HK, and you just tried to earn 50 cents from what you posted.

Shuami • 6 years ago

The guy brought up some legitimate grieving due to HK government's policy--it's obvious that he is from HK. And you sure talks like a Gangsta.

ITookADumpInYourDataPool • 6 years ago

No, it's not.

Shuami • 6 years ago

Yes, it is.

rwu • 6 years ago

If you are so sure that I'm not a real HKer, would you like to bet 100 bit coins?

How about you go ahead and transfer 100 bit coins to one of my favorite non-profit, OpFTH:
http://opfth.org/

And then I will email you copies of my current and my old HK IDs (and passport too if you want). And then OpFTH will send you a receipt for tax deduction purpose.

If I failed to do so I will donate 100 bit coins to a charity of your choice and I will also donate 100 bit coins to OpFTH and ask them to refund your 100 bit coins.

Let's do that!

Shuami • 6 years ago

The guy is obviously full of hot air!
I once bet a case of beer with a guy on the internet who was bad mouthing China's moon rover even before it's launched (about 4 month before). So I made a bet with him that if Yutu successfully land and deploy on the Moon, he would owe me a case of beer. 4 months later, Yutu did just that. So I pinged the guy. He even admitted that he lost. But I am still waiting for my case of beer.
I bet this "gangsta" would disappear from this thread.

rwu • 6 years ago

Well at least that guy had the courage to admit that he lost.

ITookADumpInYourDataPool • 6 years ago

They're called bitcoins. 'Bit coins' would be really, small coins, or maybe pieces of coins used up to the 19th century.

Duh.

rwu • 6 years ago

Oh thank you for the "correction". I use it so much that I just go with BTC, but its good that you know exactly what the terms are.

So, are you in?

Fre Okin The Contrarian • 6 years ago

China should tell America there is nothing under the sun that said China did not comply with the Basic Law China gave to HK people. There is nothing there to suggest China cannot have a nomination committee to vet those elected in local elections to ensure they are not anti China elements.

"We, as you know, support universal suffrage in Hong Kong in accordance with the Basic Law and we support the aspirations of the Hong Kong
people"
NO Issue here. China follow the agreement in the Basic Law, so what's the fuss?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...
Text of the Basic Law
General principles

The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region is part of the People's Republic of China.[3]

The region has a high degree of autonomy and enjoys executive, legislative and independent judicial power, including that of final adjudication.[3] An implication is that the former judicial recourse by appealing to the United Kingdom's Judicial Committee of the Privy Council would no longer be available. Instead, the Court of Final Appeal was established within the HKSAR to take up the role.

The executive authorities and legislature of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall be composed of permanent residents of Hong Kong in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Basic Law.[3]

The socialist system and policies shall not be practised in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, and the previous capitalist system and way of life shall remain unchanged for 50 years.[3]

The laws previously in force in Hong Kong, that is, the common law, rules of equity, ordinances, subordinate legislation and customary law (such as Chinese clan law) shall be maintained, except for any that contravene the Basic Law and subject to any amendment by the legislature of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region.[3]

The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall protect the right of ownership of private property in accordance with law."

South China Sea • 6 years ago

Fre, you're stating texts from rote you see the action that Beijing has been making lately is at issue here- when China's National People's Congress ruled on 8/31 that only pro-PRC candidates are allowed to become HK's Chief Exec, this shuts down any compromise and pushed HK people to this chaos.
When PRC used the police to investigate its perceived opponents - it pushed HK to this current quagmire.
When Zhang Xiaoming, the Dir. of the PRC gov't's. Liaison Office told a gathering of opposition politicians (pro-democracy) that Beijing showed its tolerance with "the fact that you're allowed to stay alive" it pushed HK to this point.
Xi Jinping pushed Hong Kong to this point when he withdrew the autonomy that PRC had promised HK for 50 years as part of the agreement when Britain handed back its territory in 1997, saying the local government is subordinate to Beijing's "comprehensive authority." His interpretation went bonkers, he understood it to be absolute authority. The people of Hong Kong was quiet, just being patient but they know a lot is at stake now as they're caught between a rock and a hard place.

Fre Okin The Contrarian • 6 years ago

What are you babbling about? Follow The Law. You like Rule of Law don't you? If you understand Rule of Law you will find what I dish you for you to read shows No Exclusion of the Chinese Options to insert the Nomination Process to Vet Out anti China elements. Beautiful strategy to comply with Basic Law while also taking care of National Security. China's strategy got more to do with Absence of Malicious Elements than them being necessarily pro Beijing.

Argue based on Law, not some BS imagination or statements by some crude speakers.

Valkyrie • 6 years ago

Fre, you don't even live in Hong Kong ! Lol

Fre Okin The Contrarian • 6 years ago

Useless information. I have even been to Mongkok, one of the protest sites. Do you know the students and OC adults are disturbing their already very dense area, the densest place on earth? They are now getting rotten eggs from people living in apartments around the streets. Keep going and there will be civil war while the police just watch!

ITookADumpInYourDataPool • 6 years ago

Dude, you got p0wned.

An Observer • 6 years ago

Are you a HKer? Why are you tell HK what to do all the time? You should know such busybody is annoying and considered as a pain in the rear?

South China Sea • 6 years ago

Imagination? Don't humor me, I deal with realities; what could more further from the truth?
Hongkongers know China better!
What Beijing has been doing to the freedom-loving Special Administrative Region
that is called Hong Kong is scary, intimidating and unbecoming of a rising
power, consider this:
1. The Independent Commission Against Corruption,
formerly one of the city’s most respected institution, under the leadership of
Simon Peh and Timothy Tong who in 2003 worked on legislation to restrict civil liberties, ICAC took on a mainland stance.
2. This same office in August this year launched an investigation
into several opposition figures, shades of Te-Wu, (CSP) - the Chinese secret police.
3. Beijing has stepped up its use of local front
groups like the Federation of Trade Unions, now not discussing about lost wages
anymore but you guessed it, staging anti-democracy protests.
4. State-run newspapers serve as China’s mouthpieces
in the city running smear campaigns against opposition leaders, so much for breaking news and balanced reporting.
5. Recruiting local mafia called triads which have attacked several journalists and politicians. Its hackers attack computers of pro-democracy groups. And the list goes on and on.
These developments raise deep concerns about Beijing’s real intention, its commitment to the Basic Law and its lack of respect for the people’s genuine say in their own governance and future. Hongkongers are not stupid and can be easily intimidated; they can smell it from miles away, they are making a stand.

Fre Okin The Contrarian • 6 years ago

Whoa, five strikes against China, But that don't impressive me much! First of all, HK is ruled by Law. Do you have any problem with the Legal Process? So what happen? Do those intimidated ever file charges? If they don't it is clear they do not have a case. Very easy to understand. So stop whining and Follow The Law. Stay Focus, like a Laser Beam on the Basic Law. What does it say? Anything that ever implies no nomination committee?

Daimler Altschuh • 6 years ago

Wtf, HK belongs to China and it is up to China to make and change rules for HK. Every country makes and changes rules.

South China Sea • 6 years ago

Before you make any judgment and sweeping conclusion, hear me out. It’s easy to discount HK protesters as trouble-makers. I know you’re taking that fatalistic attitude that HK is part of China anyway (no denying there) but it’s harder for people like you to discern what this protest is all about. This fight is way bigger than you, other bloggers
and I combined. Close to 30 years now HK residents have asked for a say in their system of government. They want democracy as an ironclad defense against the onslaught Beijing’s heavy handed authoritarianism. So what if they’re part of China? So what if they’re already getting the Basic Law? And so what if they’re Chinese? Does that mean they don’t want real freedom? They know China better! What Beijing has been doing to the freedom-loving Special Administrative Region that is called Hong Kong is scary, intimidating and unbecoming of a rising power, consider this:
1. The Independent Commission Against Corruption,
formerly one of the city’s most respected institution, under the leadership of
Simon Peh and Timothy Tong who in 2003 worked on legislation to restrict
civil liberties, ICAC took on a mainland stance.
2. This same office in August this year launched an investigation
into several opposition figures, shades of Te-Wu, (CSP) - the Chinese secret police.
3. Beijing has stepped up its use of local front
groups like the Federation of Trade Unions, now not discussing about lost wages
anymore but you guessed it, staging anti-democracy protests.
4. State-run newspapers serve as China’s mouthpieces
in the city running smear campaigns against opposition leaders, so much for breaking
news and balanced reporting.
5. Recruiting local mafia called triads which have
attacked several journalists and politicians.
Its hackers attack computers of pro-democracy groups. And the list goes
on and on. These developments raise deep concerns about
Beijing’s real intention, its commitment to the Basic Law and its lack of
respect for the people’s genuine say in their own governance and future. Hongkongers are not stupid and easily intimidated; they can smell it from miles away. They understand that real democracy is about both political choice and moral values - Beijing based on their actions, doesn't have any of that. This is Hong Kong’s last stand that any freedom-loving person should be supporting.

Erwin • 6 years ago

u.s. just meddling as it always do with other countries, the expect to get whatever they want. I can't understand where u.s. got its right to dictate other sovereign nations

Fre Okin The Contrarian • 6 years ago

Surprisingly I think US foreign policy is dictated by her needs for JOBS and of course spreading democracy! That is a big driver in US economy. US is a hollowed out country and need to keep cranking out military hardware to keep her economy afloat, to prevent further Pentagon budget cuts.

An Observer • 6 years ago

US changes laws, rules and treaties on the blink of an eye by claiming it is their birth right. Basic law is China to give and China to take away, it is the prerogative of a sovereign nation, all China has to do is to go thru its legislature process. US even jammed laws contravening constitution thru the Congress in the middle of night on the Christmas eve while most of the law makers were not present. It is puzzling why China cannot change its own laws because the US or some foreign busybodies say so, are they still living in the 19th century imperialist interfering at will time?

People misunderstand democracy, democracy is not about just, it is about process. as long as a prescribed process is followed, it is democracy even laws passed are not just in common sense, US and all the western democracies are full of unjust laws to the ordinary people but bias in favor to the privileged and influential.

Daimler Altschuh • 6 years ago

HKongers should be realistic that it is NOT an independent country, but us just a tiny enclave belonging to China, and have to follow Chinese rules. Funny, I didn't see HKongers asking for elections of any sort when they were under the thumbs of their colonial white masters. Every head of public institutions including the governor were parachuted in from Britain. Beijing should just do the same.

Fre Okin The Contrarian • 6 years ago

Foolish people think democracy is just going to the ballot box and vote and sit back for four years. Naive people don't realise democracy means active participation 24/7, 365 days a year to make sure they are not deceived by elected officials once the vote is over.

Daimler Altschuh • 6 years ago

HK belongs to China. China makes the law for its tiny little enclave called HK. It is an internal affair. Just like parents make the rules in the house for the kids. Now the usa should just F off.

Daimler Altschuh • 6 years ago

Chinese citizens are concerned that American cops are harassing and shooting black kids on the streets.

Alex • 6 years ago

So sad the same support the U.S. grants to the Hong Kong's activists isn't seen, for instance, on the self-determination of the Native Americans' issue. Quite easier to admonish others' dirt than cleaning the own mess.

USofA • 6 years ago

Canada and Australia and U.S. have just tightened their immigration policy to prevent Chinese from entering their countries. Even on these casual internet message boards, when you look past the paid Chinese propaganda professional commenters, you notice rising general anti-China feelings from all over the world.

MaxLecompte • 6 years ago

I like it. HK protests are a lose-lose proposition for Beijing. Wish Kerry would shut up though.

Jean-Paul • 6 years ago

Hopefully the poor HKers are given their basic and fundamental right to universal suffrage and manage to escape the claws of the CCP totalitarian regime. It's totally unfair for all those Hkers to have to endure all those unjust and unfair laws that have been put into place to suppress their wish for democracy and freedom.
It seems like both Moscow and Beijing are two birds from the same oppressive flock, both of them suppressed peaceful protests (Kiev, Hong Kong) for their own greed and fasict beliefs. Hopefully the people of Hong Kong can start their own militias like the Ukrainians did so they can gain their independence.