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Re: Atonement? Do Jesus' Words Get Priority and Do They Demonstrate the Rest of the NT as Heresy?

WeepingBlackAngel — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:58:26 -0000

Dan,
for 2,000 years people have argued and fought over baptism. To suggest to an Anabaptist that water profits nothing borders on blasphemy since so many anabaptists died for water baptism. That's like saying your ancestors were wrong. Guess what they were wrong.

John and a few of the early disciples of Jesus water baptized altho neither he nor Paul did.
There are 3 baptism
water -John
fire -for the wicked
Spirit from Jesus -when you are spirit born .

Water never made anything holy or anyone and all rituals and ceremonies were absolved when we were told to worship in spirit. That means like good quakers with no holy objects, rituals or days.

John I plan to take a break when I see you using adjectives like ridiculous
wild rant,
Take a chill pill

Different perspectives if presented as alternatives are to be welcomed unless they are demanding that you must believe them. I do not ask you to believe anything I say.
I am glad to see that you don't think Paul is infallible, you are probably looked on with suspicion in the Land of Goshen.
Peace to you until another time.
Robert Roberg

BTW they drove me out of EMU (I didn't fit the mold).

Re: Atonement? Do Jesus' Words Get Priority and Do They Demonstrate the Rest of the NT as Heresy?

WeepingBlackAngel — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:39:39 -0000

Hi Dan,
I like your description
"swinging the scythe madly through the rest of the New Testament."

I preached one day in Goshen many moons ago. I had a friend named Riegsekker (SP)

This is a 40 year pruning job. I began studying Greek in Greece in 1969 and Hebrew in Israel in 1970 and have not let up.

It's more like every tree that bears evil fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

I see Jesus as calling us completely away from the Caesar but find Paul telling us the Caesar's are God's ministers and hey have a right to wage war and as good citizens we must obey or be damned.

I see Jesus calling us to upset the status quo but Paul calling us to be the stillem in die landem.

Re: Atonement? Do Jesus' Words Get Priority and Do They Demonstrate the Rest of the NT as Heresy?

WeepingBlackAngel — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:27:52 -0000

Hi Dan,

Re: Atonement? Do Jesus' Words Get Priority and Do They Demonstrate the Rest of the NT as Heresy?

WeepingBlackAngel — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:19:17 -0000

Dan,
he heart of my question is did Paul teach the sacrifice of Jesus and the shedding of his blood is what cleanses us from sin and imputes righteousness to us, and it was predtermined before the foundation of the world?

If this is incorrect what is his true plan of Salvation?

To me Jesus' plan is whoever hears and keeps on hearing and does and keeps on doing is in the KIngdom now and has zoe life and will have Zoe Life in the world to come.

You can call me Robert, I have a minor in Theology from a Jesusit Unversity, attended Rosedale Bible Colege in Ohio and Eastern Mennonite Seminary in VA.

Re: Atonement? Do Jesus' Words Get Priority and Do They Demonstrate the Rest of the NT as Heresy?

WeepingBlackAngel — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:05:47 -0000

Dan,
Have you ever wondered why John the B. didn't follow Jesus? Yes Jesus said he was the greatest man born of a woman but he pales to the least true follower. John was stuck in the OT and thought Jesus was the sacrifical lamb. He missed the boat. He thought Jeus was going to set him free from prison and kill all the Gentiles and rule the world just like the Book of the Rev. teaches, but John was stuck in the Old wine and ended his days in doubt. Unfortuantely Christians view John as a Great prophet and follow his foolish wet ritual, even tho Jesus taught spirit baptism and not water baptism.

We have been suffering Bibliolatry so long that we can't read it. IWe think every word is God breathed, f there is something flat out wrong, we think the fault lies with us.

When Paul writes something so horrndous as you guys if you are sex fiends go marry some innocent girl for it is better to marry than burn, we don't evne blink. When we read in the Revelation that women are defiling and only men undefiled can be part of the 144,000 we say Amen.

Sorry if I am ranting I've been under the weather and it may be affecting me.

Re: Atonement? Do Jesus' Words Get Priority and Do They Demonstrate the Rest of the NT as Heresy?

WeepingBlackAngel — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:55:23 -0000

Hin Dan,
I am not hostile to any of the Apostles except Paul and whoever wrote 2nd Peter, Acts and Revelation and the letters of John. Having said that there are some things they taught that are in sync with Jesus Gospel and I take what is gold and spit out the straw.

Does that make me the arbiter of what is right and wrong. Yes. I like to think I am rightly dividing the word, but just as you learn to spot counterfeit bills by studying the true ones I have spent my life studying Jesus's words and can show where they contradict him.

The question I always ask is if we only had the 4 gospels would that be enough?

Granted Paul has been misinderstood but it is because he is so obtuse. He flip flops on Univesal salvation and say all will be saved but later only believers will be saved. He disparages the law and then sings its praises. He says it's by faith but says we must obey the Law of Christ. Jesus forbade hierarchies and titles but Paul ordained elders and set up ecclesiatical powers.

He is a self styled Apostle with no witnesses until a 3rd Century copy of 2nd Peter appeared. He claims to be the greatest Apostle and the chief of sinners.
He says be kind to slaves but sends Onesimus back to be a slave. I live in the south and they loved Paul and hated any Christians who suggested slavery was wrong. They had the Paul on their side.

Paul did not teach the Gosple that Jesus said his disciples were to teach-namely everything that Jesus commanded. Oh he bumped into the Gospel a few times but what Talmid does not quote his Rabbi extensively. He was more concered with his own Gospel and that we follow him for he made up what was lacking in Christ.

Re: Atonement? Do Jesus' Words Get Priority and Do They Demonstrate the Rest of the NT as Heresy?

WeepingBlackAngel — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:14:24 -0000

Dan,
I am happy that you see through the modern obseesion with blood heresy.
We differ you and Paul say Jesus blood was necessary and was the final. I say God never wanted blood from the start, not when he took them out of Egypt and not ever.

Look closely at the wording at the last supper (Not Paul's twisted version) Jesus speaks of wine being poured out and compares it to blood.

Then think of Proverbs where wine and bread are served. What do they represent? What is this New Covenant in which we eat and drink his blood? Remeber he said "the flesh profits nothing."

Was he establishing a covenant based on rituals based on blood and cannibalism?

No in Proverbs the bread and the wine refer to wisdom. The bread of the Pharisees is their "teaching". Jesus words are our bread.

At the widom meal Jesus is lifting us to the realm of spiritual worship where his teaching is his bread (we eat it daily) and his wisdom is the wine that inebirates us when we put the teaching into practice. Without obedience there is no covenant.

He sent his logos and saved us.
" If you continue in my logos you are my disciples indeed and will never see death".

A preacher goes out a sows the logos (the words of Jesus) not the words of Moses, David, Paul and Peter. They are prologue commenators and epilogue commenators and quite frankly often off the mark.

I like you idea that the powers (archons) were hungry for blood, but they are like wolves who can never have enough. Jesus did not slake their thirst. Their power was broken because they always operated within the law. The soul that sins must die. But they were defeated by the law that says who ever takes a payment (ransom) and then kills the innocent are cursed." It was his life of innocence that defeated them.

BTW Dan I do not claim to right about everything, in fact I quake and hope that what I am writing is true.

Re: Atonement? Do Jesus' Words Get Priority and Do They Demonstrate the Rest of the NT as Heresy?

WeepingBlackAngel — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:59:37 -0000

One of the largest movement right after the death of Christ which was vying with the leadership of the Roman Christian in Rome was led by Marcion who said the Father of Jesus was not the God of the OT. The father of Jesus loves all mankind and is a peacemaker. The God of the OT loved only Israel and was involved in moany genocides.

The OT even sayd he gave them bad laws.
"'I gave them statutes that were not good, and ordinances by which they could not have life.' Ezek 20:25

Re: Atonement? Do Jesus' Words Get Priority and Do They Demonstrate the Rest of the NT as Heresy?

WeepingBlackAngel — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:51:22 -0000

Kyle,
Jesus-God does not want sacrifce
Paul- Christ our Passover sacrifice 1Cor. 5:7

Jesus said he was a shepherd, but John the Baptist and Paul and the Revelator say he is a lamb.

Jesus- said "although her sins were many they are forgive for she loved much. No blood required.
Hebrews without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness.
Mt.18:21 God is a merciful king who forgives unpayable debts.
Paul-God is wrathful Rom 5:9 and must be propitiated with the blood of an innocent man.

Kyle there are many more if you'd like to see them.

Re: Atonement? Do Jesus' Words Get Priority and Do They Demonstrate the Rest of the NT as Heresy?

WeepingBlackAngel — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:27:10 -0000

Kurt and Dan,
I would like to suggest some teaching that are in conflict with each other.

IN Nazaret Jeuss said :I have come to set the slave free.
Paul prolonged slavery.

Jesus said Go and teach all nations everything I taught you.
Paul only quoted 2 things Jesus taught and misquoted him both times.
Jesus said eternal zoe life comes from continuing in his word and doing what he said to do.
Paul said by grace we are saved. Jesus never once used the word grace.
Jesus said God does not want sacrifice, Paul taught that he was the passover sacrifice.

This is only the tip of the iceberg, I can give you more unless you think I am a whacko.

Re: Atonement? Do Jesus' Words Get Priority and Do They Demonstrate the Rest of the NT as Heresy?

WeepingBlackAngel — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:16:32 -0000

Jaiger,
when you say all the words of scripture do you mean the 80 books used by 1 billion Catholics? Do you mean the trucated 66 books used by Jews and Protestants? Do you mean the Gnostic Gospels? Do you mean the Lost books? Do you mean the KJV? Which version there are 11?

Moses taught and eye for an eye and Jesus refuted that. Are they both correct?

Re: Atonement? Do Jesus' Words Get Priority and Do They Demonstrate the Rest of the NT as Heresy?

WeepingBlackAngel — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:10:22 -0000

Kyle ,
sure he made it clear the OT was distorted. He said search the scriptures (OT) but you will not find zoe life in them. All who came before me were thieves and robbers. He never said believe the Bible. He said "My words are spirit and Zoe life, and he sent his followers not to teach the whole Bible bit all things he taught them -No other vines-one vine.

Jesus didn't even have much use for John the Baptist's words describing him as lower than the lowest Christian.

Re: Atonement? Do Jesus' Words Get Priority and Do They Demonstrate the Rest of the NT as Heresy?

WeepingBlackAngel — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:57:26 -0000

Dan,
you wrote: It has been my observation that careful reading of the epistles reveals that they say a whole lot less about blood atonement, than theologians CLAIM they say".
Dan if they only say it once they are leading people astray. Jesus said twice that God does not weant sacrifice. Psul, 1 JOhn 2nd Peter and Hebrews and Acts make it a drum roll a major motif. Wiothout Blood there is no remission of sins.

How unlike Yahshuah who said if you forgive others father will forgive you."

I sat down and read Paul non-stop and I head him talk a lot about love.

But later when I realized God did not want sacrifice I reread Paul and read about blood, propitiating an angry God of wrath.

Re: Atonement? Do Jesus' Words Get Priority and Do They Demonstrate the Rest of the NT as Heresy?

WeepingBlackAngel — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:50:43 -0000

Kyle 75,
Jesus said heaven and earth would pass away but his words will not so we can rest asuured that we have his actual words. for he said they are "Spirit" not just someone's memory of what he said. He promised the Holy Spirit would call all his words to memory. No room for slippage.

Re: Atonement? Do Jesus' Words Get Priority and Do They Demonstrate the Rest of the NT as Heresy?

WeepingBlackAngel — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:48:24 -0000

Jan,
the Apostles were to be witnesses only to what he had commanded them. "Goye nand teach all things I commanded you. They were not to teach things he did not teach. He siad God does not want sacrifice, so if they teach sacrifice they are not teaching what he taught.

Re: Discussing the Atonement When Its No Longer Cool!

WeepingBlackAngel — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 08:58:18 -0000

Hi Kurt,
. A couple of questions:

1. Do you believe that only the recorded words of Jesus are authoritative? If so why?
Jesus said heaven and earth would pass but his words would not. So yes they are authorative.

Everything that harmonizes with the words of Jesus is true. He said his words are spirit and zoe life. He said " am the truth. He is our gold standard by which we judge all truth. His words for me are only in the 4 Gospels and that's why I call myself a Red Letter Christian (Not to be confused with Tony Camplos mixing of politics and Jesus).
I also call myself a "one viner" for I only draw my theology from the one vine of Jesus. The other writings I view as commentary, some of the commentary is in sync with Jesus but some of it is contrary. For example when Jesus says God does not want sacrifice and Paul , Hebrews and 2 Peter preach sacrifices I disregard their commentary and dismiss their comments as the thoughts of imperfect men being lead astray by adversaries.
2. Do you not believe that the rest of the NT books are accurate in their depiction of Jesus' death and resurrection in regard to the issue of forgiveness? If this is your view or some version of it; on what grounds do you dismiss the writings of Paul, Peter, John, and others? Is this what you mean by "Mixing?"I dismiss anything that does not harmonize with Jesus whether it is said by Moses, Pau, Mt, Mrk, Lk, or Jn,l or any apostle (they were all fallible men)
No amount of blood can remove the sins of an unrepentant sinner who does not forgive everyone.
"If you do not forgive others, father cannot forgive you."

3. Would you categorize your belief system with a specific name?"Berean" for I search the scriptures daily. I am not a teacher, preacher, prophet, expert scholar, but merely a serious student who has been wrong often and I do not inisist people agree with me. If you can show me scripture that harmonizes with Jesus, I am teachable.

Finally, I agree that Jesus declared forgiveness without shedding his blood in some scenarios that you mention, but it seems that without the resurrection his words would not have been valid. Resurrection vindicated Jesus as the world's True Lord and the only one who has ever conquered death. Any thoughts here? Just trying to understand you position a bit more.
His mission was to deliver the logos. He was the sower sowing the logos (note he does not claim to be the logos, but preached the logos and told us to preach it.
The logos is the message of the Father as revealed by Jesus . The law came by Moses but truth came by Jesus. If he never died or rose he would have still completed his mission. You are cleansed (would that be foriven?) by the word. He sent his word and healed them. The resurrection was to increase our faith and take away our fear of death as you said it vindicated everything Jesus said and did.

PS - Do you have a blog? Any recommended online reading I can do to further understand your views on Jesus? I have a book on AmazonThe Gospel of the kingdom: Retold and it can be downloaded here free.http://robertroberg.com/writings/k...
Peace

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Re: Discussing the Atonement When Its No Longer Cool!

WeepingBlackAngel — Mon, 03 Aug 2009 21:19:12 -0000

Sorry Kurt,
I didn't mean to imply you don't read Jesus, I can see you do, but like most believers you mix his truth in with the whole Bible as if all truth is equal. Plus you were recommending a list of books.

I think we get lost in the forest of the Bible and mislead by mixing. Only the word's of Jesus are the Light, and the bread, spirit and zoe life.

Even my words are lifeless compared to his.

The blood of Jesus is found in Proverbs 8, it is "wisdom".
It is wisdom that teaches how to remit our sins.
Jesus spoke the words of wisdom which shows us in 5 steps how to remove sins.
1.Confess your sins,
2. make amends
3. Forgive and you will be forgiven.
4. Because she loved much, her sins though many are forgiven.
5. Make a supreme effort, like the man coming down through the roof, to reach Jesus.
None of these steps involves blood, or death.

Jesus goal was not to die but to live a sinless life. It was his sinless life that broke the power of Satan. He offered his life as a ransom in a living prisoner exchange. One sinless man sinned and one sinless man conquered sin. God doesn't cheat. He didn't come to the earth in a skin suit and deceive the devil.

Satan was a murderer from the beginning and so Jesus knew he would die, his final temptation was to get through the final hours without sinning and he made it. He shouted in a loud voice tetlestai (the gladiator's cry of victory).

Although he was wounded and lost his throne of power, Satan was not giving up, he made sure the twisted blood atonement found it's way into the other NT books. He has succeeded in clouding and diluting the words of Jesus through mixing.

The point of the resurrection was so that we might believe, and prove to us that we too will rise on the final day if we follow our master and keep on studying his undiluted Gospel and keep on doing it.
Peace
Robert

Re: Discussing the Atonement When Its No Longer Cool!

WeepingBlackAngel — Mon, 03 Aug 2009 14:26:14 -0000

Jesus told us how to restore the broken connection with the father without blood or death. He said If you love me the father will love you. (Restoration accomplished). Do you need a better connection? If you keep my sayings (commandments) the father and I will make our abode with you. No blood or death involved.

The Old boys (sages of the OT) thought blood was necessary for sin removal. Wrong! If you forgive others the father will forgive you. No blood required.

Stop readin all dem damn books and read Jesus.

Peace
Robert Roberg
Gainesville FL