Disqus - Latest Comments for SiduriWines

Re: Do Lower Yields Mean Higher Quality?

Adam Lee — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 16:42:53 -0000

A few things I'd wonder about:

1) The grape crush report (which you used to get tons crushed) actually measures grapes purchased by wineries and made into wine. Yields in those cases could be higher I assume (growers doing what they can to get higher yields etc) than it might be for estate wineries. So which of these wineries are Estate in their grape sourcing?
2) Planting density....Tyler alludes to this. Places like Opus are pretty densely planted and thus yields on a TPA basis might be higher but not on a lbs per vine basis.
3) I wonder about the drop off/consistency of price of all of the wines from 2003 forward. That seems very odd given the variability of the preceding period. I wonder where the secondary market prices came from? Has the market not had enough time to make a judgement on the wines from 2003 onward?
4) Per Candid Wines comments below -- if you look at the wines from 1997 through 2002 one thing you can see, I think (I am not a statistician), is a relationship between average brix and pricing. The 3 highest average brix years were 1997 (24.5), 2001 (24.8) and 2002 (25.3). Those are also the wines that are priced the highest.....

So, Blake, let's see about changing the title to "Does high brix mean higher quality?" :)

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Re: Ignoring California Wines: Is Anybody Listening?

Adam Lee — Mon, 19 Sep 2011 14:01:49 -0000

Adam,

A couple of points of clarification:

1) I didn't try to point out that you were "wrong" in saying that California wines had risen beyond the point of inflation. Rather, I simply took the approach which I thought you took in your previous post, analyzing data. In one of your posts on Steve's blog you provided a list of 4 California Cabernets that you said had increased prices 4x when inflation during the same period had increased 2.8x. I examined the list and found that:

Caymus Special Select 1985 was $50 at release, I can now buy it for $99.
Montelena was $25, now $99
Mondavi Reserve was $40, I can now get it for $80
Phelps Insignia was $52, now $135

That is an average increase of 2.47 or below the 2.8x rate of inflation. That was your own list, not my choices. You responded saying you could provide a list that is 5x....and I believe that, but I didn't see that list.

2) I also brought up the fact that, in your mention of value priced imports you specifically mentioned Muscadet....and that over 10% of the Muscadet growers declared bankruptcy in 2010 and that the amount of Muscadet exported has decreased in 25 years from 2.2 million cases to 0.55 million cases today. I love Muscadet and think there are some amazing wines there (and have visited the region), but hardly think that qualifies as a successful long term strategy for growers or wineries. Likewise the "crisis distillations" that have occured in Europe (see the link here: http://www.timesonline.co.u..., are also not a good long-term strategy. My fear is that, while we all enjoy a bargain, these are not sustainable prices for growers and wineries and seeing those good people go out of business would not be good for anyone.
3) I would also mention that I don’t think it is California wine that is ignoring you, but rather you ignoring it. Recently, Steve Heimoff, in his blog, featured Cameron Hughes and his now 10 year old portfolio of very fine value wines. I’d mention Sean Minor as another new producer of high quality, under $20 per bottle wines. Castle Rock is out and around everywhere, as are the many labels bottled across the parking lot from us at Adler Fells. And at Siduri we produce at least two under $20 Pinot Noirs each year in decent quantity (when nature allows for that) while at our Novy label we have two blends that are under $10, several white and two Syrahs under $20. I don’t believe that the problem is the price point, it is that the wines don’t match your taste….or that you don’t believe they do so you don’t try them. Of course there are exceptions to this, but I don’t believe painting all California wineries as having their eyes closed is a fair characterization.

Thanks for the opportunity to respond,

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines & Novy Family Winery

Re: What is Natural Wine?

Adam Lee — Thu, 22 Apr 2010 09:16:06 -0000

Alice,

Thanks for the reinstatement!

Actually, I should edit my quote, too. The vineyard (s) were actually farmed by the same person - just owned by someone different for awhile. Oregon has some wacky land-use laws and the guy who owned the entire vineyard wanted to purchase an adjacent piece of property. For reasons beyond understanding he had to sell off part of his existing property to purchase an adjoining parcel. He sold to a different person but maintained the farming on both (at least during the time we are discussing - things have changed subsequently).

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Re: What is Natural Wine?

Adam Lee — Thu, 22 Apr 2010 09:00:28 -0000

Hey Alice, any idea why my comment before was removed and "edited by a moderator?"

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Re: What is Natural Wine?

Adam Lee — Wed, 21 Apr 2010 21:06:54 -0000

John & Alice,

I went back to Table Wines, Second Edition by Amerine and read again (been awhile) the chapter on yeasts - and can't find anywhere that Amerine said that great wines can only be produced using native ferments, or that innoculated ferments can only produce decent wines. Where am I missing that? I can find him saying where other people say that, but that the results cannot be verified. And I can find him saying that indigenous yeasts in California haven't been studied sufficiently. But that is all.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Re: What is Natural Wine?

Adam Lee — Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:37:11 -0000

Alice, both are farmed the same way --- actually both have always been farmed the same way. Both, actually, are farmed organically (though neither is certified). One is own-rooted, one is not. Neither is irrigated.

In this case it isn't aldehydes but ethyl acetate. And I am very used to that in the first part of uninnoculated fermentation. However, one section will go all the way thru fermentation (or at least it went 2/3 of the way thru fermentation 3 different times) producing incredibly high levels of ethyly acetate and resulting volatile acidity (so, unfortunately, not something that works itself out like most of our uninnoculated ferments). The other section did not. And, in the second and third years, we divided the section that seemed to have EA problems into two different lots - innoculating one and not the other. The uninnoculated section had the EA and VA issues - the innoculated section did not have similar issues. -

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Re: What is Natural Wine?

Adam Lee — Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:17:20 -0000

John,

I wasn't clear - we make both the wines. It is basically two different blocks of the same vineyard. One section is a bit more wind protected than the other - at least at the bottom of the one section - but that's really about the only difference.

As far at Kloeckera goes - we expect it and the resulting ethyl acetate. In the one section we see it continuing on - without Sacc seemingly taking over - going all the way down to 8 on the hydrometer (that's when we gave up after 3 years of this happening). Have not seen the same thing in the other section.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Re: What is Natural Wine?

Adam Lee — Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:47:53 -0000

Alice & John,

I have one vineyard, up in Oregon, that by letting it ferment on its own - it invariably produces a disarmingly (and disturbingly) high amount of ethyl acetate in the wine. I have seen this over numerous vintages. The vineyard next door, farmed by the same person, in the same soils (actually the vineyard used to be one - but there was a split in ownership and now it is back to one, different owner), does not show this same effect with left to ferment on its own. The only differences I can see are rootstock (one is own rooted, one on rootstock) and clone (one is Wadenswil, the other Dijon clones, primarily). -- I don't know whether or not to attribute this to different yeasts on the grapes (certainly the winery has plenty of yeasts within its walls) or whether it is simply the way that the same yeast in translating differences in the grapes. Any thoughts from either of you?

One other question, Alice, is I was wondering where Amerine said that about native yeasts. I have read both Winemaking Technology books of his (though some time ago) and what I remember was him saying that yeasts occuring natively on CA grapes hadn't been sufficiently studied as of yet.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Re: What is Natural Wine?

Adam Lee — Wed, 21 Apr 2010 17:52:18 -0000

Ben,

I didn't think I mentioned anything about yeast.

Nor did I say that the misconception was accurate - simply that the subtitle of the book is one place where it could originate.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Re: What is Natural Wine?

Adam Lee — Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:53:35 -0000

Alice,

If I had to speculate, I'd say the subtitle of your book, "How I Saved the World from Parkerization" probably had something to do with the "misconception (s) that I want to convert the world to natural, or my natural wines."

In one of your earlier posts you mention that there are bad wines (and inexperienced - or poor winemakers) in the sphere of natural wines. I know that I have seen you negatively comment on "industrial" wines - but don't recall (perhaps my memory is faulty) and negative reviews from you on a "natural wine." Is that a fair comment, concern?

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Re: Chianti as Volnay- One World One Wine

Adam Lee — Tue, 12 Jan 2010 11:28:08 -0000

Alice,

The examples I briefly looked up were recent vintage....05 thru 07. Didn't know that Aubert was a believer.

With the Ollivier example we are getting somewhere. So, no additions and 9.5% alcohol is something to be praised? But no additions and 16% alcohol in CA is something to be condemned as "on hormones" and "uniteresting?"

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Re: Chianti as Volnay- One World One Wine

Adam Lee — Tue, 12 Jan 2010 07:44:45 -0000

Alice,

I'm sorry....but I have to disagree on a couple of things.

First, to say that chaptalization was done only for alcohol levels and not for increased body seems naive to me -- akin to saying "I only have sex to procreate." The Romans, who added honey to wine long before the wines we are discussing, knew that adding a sweetened substance to wine increased body. The French knew this as well.

And to say that "the practice is a thing of the past" is equally naive. A brief glance thru Tanzer's notes shows these names chaptalizing.....Montille, Carillon, Raveneau, Roumier, Jadot, Morey....and on and on.

Finally, to imply that boutique CA Pinot Noir producers use "the whole book to ameliorate" is something that I'd be interested to see backed up with some fact, names, etc.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Re: Chianti as Volnay- One World One Wine

Adam Lee — Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:17:43 -0000

Obviously, it intrigues me as well.

It seems to me that there are numerous Burgundian producers that chaptalize as a matter of practice - saying (by your reasoning), we are about backbone and can put in the flesh afterwards.

And it seems that you are willing to cut the French some slack for a decade long flirtation with Accad but not give CA a decade long flirtation with riper wines? BTW, Burgundy used to be much higher in alcohol and a bit sweet as well.

That being said, I don't really think a bunch of CA vintners got together and said, "wow, let's all of a sudden make fruit bombs and add structure later." For one, you are giving wineries too much credit for unanamity of purpose. We simply aren't that organized. Can't agree on the boundaries of the Russian River, much less a style of wines.

As someone who started making Pinot Noir in 1994, I said....what best reflects this place.....and have worked with growers and in the winery to make that happen in differeng vintages (some years easier than others). The fact is we've tested different things, experimented with different yields, different ripeness levels, different pruning times, etc. in hopes of doing this better. Sometimes it has worked well....other times not....but we have always learned. Our goal is to do less, not more.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Re: Chianti as Volnay- One World One Wine

Adam Lee — Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:36:43 -0000

Definitely......from barriques in Piedmont, to Guy Accad in Burgundy, to the shifting range of ripeness levels in German classifications, to the movement toward organic and biodynamic viitculture amongst folks in so many European regions....seems like a lack of commitment to me. ;)

Re: Chianti as Volnay- One World One Wine

Adam Lee — Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:23:57 -0000

I always read you carefully, Alice! Hanging on every word.

Personally, I think if you need to make any additions "all the time" - acid, sugar, etc. then you need to adjust your grape growing. There's a lot of chaptalization going on out in the world....not in CA though!

I can't help it if I can't capture your interest with my Pinots, but that's not my job. My job is to capture the site, and to make a wine of quality.

As far as knowing what CA Pinot Noir is.....that's akin to saying do you know what "french pinot" is. The growing regions are spread apart, the microclimates are different in each, the soil types somewhat different, that to narrow it down to one style for such a huge geographic area makes little sense to me.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Re: Chianti as Volnay- One World One Wine

Adam Lee — Mon, 11 Jan 2010 16:49:22 -0000

Alice,

I like how you say that you want a grape to have integrity and....in what was your previous blog entry you say " What is integrity and what is it in a wine or in people. I swear, I don't know. " -- What is grape integrity to you?

As far as "people" wanting Pinot Noir to stop taking hormones....I think that Pinot Noir has become incredibly popular amongst "people" in this country since 1994....so not sure what people you are refering to want it tostop taking hormones. I think there is a vocal minority that feels that way, but a minority nonetheless. --- Actually, I think CA has a fairly wide variety of styles of Pinot Noir - but those which don't fit a certain style are viewed as an abberation rather than a style that doesn't fit a palate.

From my experience I think many smaller, bigger producers of Pinot Noir do less fixing that many counterparts - and thus you don't like the wines because they reflect a place (CA) that you don't care for all that much.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Re: Chianti as Volnay- One World One Wine

Adam Lee — Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:44:33 -0000

What I always find interesting is that, oftentimes, the same folks who complain about the globalization of wine - will then, in another conversation, complain that California Pinot Noir (or Syrah....etc) is too big, too ripe, too low in acid, etc. and that it should taste more like Burgundy (or the Rhone, etc). Seems like wanting it both ways.

Re: Wine, Mouthfeel and the Dilemma

Adam Lee — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 11:28:05 -0000

Steve,

Actually, I think your comment says as much about the publishing business as it does the wine business. It doesn't seem that shocking to me that a publication, supported largely by advertisements selling wine additions and wine-related products, would write an article focused on wine additions. I think that type of thing is pretty standard across most industries.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Re: Wine, Mouthfeel and the Dilemma

Adam Lee — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:13:03 -0000

Alice,

I don't really like to think that it is the job of Pinot producers to "dial back" or "dial forward." It is more, as you state, "husbandry." As such, there are gonig to be sites....such as Pisoni and Keefer (speaking from my experience only) that produce bigger, richer, (or as you stated it, more Syrah like) Pinots. Dialing them back would be just as much a disservice to that act of "husbandry" as taking our Ewald Vineyard (a small site in the Russian River that tends to ripen at lower sugar levels and not like new oak) and "dialing it forward."

After 16 vintages, I think I am just now beginning to understand how to best work with the grapes, the site, the juice, and the wine - at least in some locations - and how to perform best this act of "husbandry." Some of the wines will be to the liking of those that like lower alcohol, more elegant wines....others definitely will not....but making wine for another's palate...yours or Parkers or Joe across the street...isn't a goal I could achieve and be happy doing.

So, I guess I can't really say whether or not too many Pinots are made in the "style of California Syrah" as I don't know the sites well enough.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Re: Wine, Mouthfeel and the Dilemma

Adam Lee — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 07:12:44 -0000

Alice,

Texture became a selling point a long, long, long time ago. Part of the reason for using sussreserve in German wines was a controllable increase in sweetness and texture. It is a pretty ancient concern - but not one that you particularly put a great deal of emphasis on (which is fine, of course).

I am curious on your "tell that to California Pinot makers" comment after saying you wouldn't expect the same texture in your CdP as your Vosne. I don't get what you are implying. I think there is a fairly varied range of CA Pinot Noir out there - from the Rhys, Arcadian, Salinia wineries to the Red Car, Kosta-Browne wineries.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Re: Natural Wines: The Definition.

Adam Lee — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 07:06:37 -0000

Perhaps I'm feeling cynical....'tis the beginning of harvest and all.

But is the point of all of our talk on "natural wines" simply to point out the hyprocrisy of those who proclaim their wines as green (when they are not) or is it to truly live more naturally and initiate some level of change?

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Re: Natural Wines: The Definition.

Adam Lee — Sat, 05 Sep 2009 08:31:23 -0000

Alice,

Don't you live in the biggest city in the United States....a sea of concrete covering up nature itself? A permanent Round-Up, so to speak?

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Re: Natural Wine: Some History

Adam Lee — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 19:39:30 -0000

Steve,

It had to do with the pacifist question and the person who would ask you the questions about rape. Basically, via Wikipedia...."The Socratic Method (or Method of Elenchus or Socratic Debate), named after the Classical Greek philosopher Socrates, is a form of inquiry and debate between individuals with opposing viewpoints based on asking and answering questions to stimulate rational thinking and to illuminate ideas."

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Re: Natural Wine: Some History

Adam Lee — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 15:26:30 -0000

Ah, Steve, I rather like the Socratic method.

Re: Natural Wines: The Definition.

Adam Lee — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 08:17:24 -0000

Hank,

First, thank you for responding. This debate (and I mean that in the most honorable sense) is one fit for consideration. I find it wonderful that wine is so much more than a beverage but that it opens the doors to these types of discussions.

It is true, we've got very little trust in nature....neither you nor I. Were you or I to believe that nature was perfect then we would not pursue this wonderful, yet elusive, thing that we call wine and, instead, let nature take its course and turn the grape juice into wine into vinegar. But it is not just what we do, but our belief in the worthiness of what we do, that shows that we believe that nature is not perfect.

This is not to say that I am blind to the imperfections of humanity. They are great...and sometimes one wonders if they are not greater than our better angels. But I would submit that, if you saw a person swept away by the power of a natural flood, and you had the means to save them, you would do so.....defying the perfection of nature, and believing that that person has the opportunity to do more good than evil.

Again, thank you Hank. Wine, which to me is the wonderful marriage of things natural and things human, provides such wonder.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines