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Re: LOST - Season 5 Discussion Thread

Rusty_James — Thu, 21 May 2009 17:56:56 -0000

What small mystery from the earlier seasons are you worried they won't have time for?

I'd like to see Razinsky in the hatch and learn why he was drawing the map, comitted suicide and left those affects in The Arrow.

Re: LOST - Season 5 Discussion Thread

Rusty_James — Mon, 18 May 2009 00:26:04 -0000

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@ Do you think Jacob's Adversary is Vincent?

If you look above I put him on the Adversary list. They were definitely making him look sinister in those early episodes.

Here's a question. Do you think Jacob is visiting the people who arrived on 815 or do you think he's recruiting people to come to the island? Is he visiting Kate because she shows up on the island later or does she show up on the island later because Jacob picked her?

Re: LOST - Season 5 Discussion Thread

Rusty_James — Fri, 15 May 2009 13:35:13 -0000

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And if suspense is so integral to the show why do the writers make a habit of showing us the outcome / pay off first and then the set up later?
Why do they show us the chacters boarding 815 at the end of season 1?
Desmond's years in the hatch at the end of season 2?
The Other 48 Days after we already know the outcome?
The plane crash way after we already know?
Jack back in civilition and then the freighter rescueing them?

And why did you forgive all that? Why is it only now that you complain about the abscence of suspense?
It seems like you approach the show from a presumption of superiority. You label it as this or that and then lecture if it tries to be anything different.
You're like the teacher who has lost touch with the students and turned into a disciplinarian who gets angry when anyone goes against the system or breaks the mold.

I'm like the cool teacher with the earing and guitar. The one that really listens and gets it.

Re: LOST - Season 5 Discussion Thread

Rusty_James — Fri, 15 May 2009 13:25:51 -0000

so, I say:
the what is less important than the why

and then

The 'why' rather than the 'what'

and you tell me that I what I meant to say is "the what is important not the how"

?/??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????///!!!!

Between this, that Star Trek thread, and the debate about free will above; I think it's been established as a matter of record that you don't read my posts very closely. I don't how I'm even supposed to continue with this conversation at this point.

"to say the suspense is not important to the story is absurd, its integral, its why we are here writing 500 comments"

I don't know about you, but I'm writing about themes, ideas and characters.
I'm certainly not in denial about the fact that LOST
A) is a serial adventure
B) makes copious use of cliffhanger devices

But you seem to mean that the show can only work on one level and isn't allowed to have compelling characters. It's like you divide the world up into stories about plot and stories about character. It's maddeningly binary.

@ So I am coming at this from an opposite perspective from you guys, its no wonder we can't agree on what are the good and bad episodes.

I'm curious. Which are your favorite episodes of the series?
I'd list
Deus Ex Machina
Man of Science, Man of Faith
Orientation
Man Behind The Curtain
Greatest Hits
Through The Looking Glass
Constant
Meet Kevin Johnson
Shape of Things to Come

and I might even be persuaded to add The Incident.

Re: LOST - Season 5 Discussion Thread

Rusty_James — Fri, 15 May 2009 11:59:17 -0000

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@ and you Rusty clearly seem to be saying that (why else are you saying the Locke is not Locke reveal was successful?)

I guess it just never occurred to you that I would be advocating for it on merrits other than suspense.

@ From a storytelling standpoint I chose the viewpoint it was Locke because until that point I never thought the writers would be so bad at hiding the reveal.

I remember you throwing some fit about them "balking" at Ben's death, and how they better never do it again.

As for all the "give aways" about Locke. What about Locke strolling into Alpert's camp with a dead boar on his shoulders? Mirroring his entrance in Walkabout, after his monster encounter, and The Brig after killing his father. In all three instances signifying the characters reaffirmed faith in himself and his destiny. There are clues for both out comes. It's easy to say in hind sight that it was obvious.
In any case, I don't understand the sudden hang up on give aways. I'm less interested in developments be predictable and more concerned with them being interesting thematically and compelling story wise. The 'why' rather than the 'what', as I tried to explain but it fell on deaf ears.
I don't know why someone who feels otherwise would watch LOST in the first place. If I were you I'd have given up a long time ago. Why are watching them build the swan? We already know how it blows up. Why are we watching Locking getting pushed out a window? We already knew he was paralyzed. I don't understand why you've chosen now to be bothered by this stuff.
What is compelling about the storyline is Locke's sad fate, the Jacob mythology with his adversary played out over centuries, and dejected Ben's lost faith.
To me, Locke banging futilely on the metal hatch is infinitely more compelling than learning what the button does, or turning the frozen donkey wheel. I love watching these characters struggle with their need for purpose and faith. But I guess you've always said that you find the characters superficial so I can see why it wouldn't work for you on that level.

Re: LOST - Season 5 Discussion Thread

Rusty_James — Fri, 15 May 2009 11:04:18 -0000

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@ smokey tells Ben to follow Locke and do whatever he says. Smokey is on MiB's side, if not him directly

Locke's early encounter with the monster. Smokey's impersonation of the dead -> Christian manipulating Locke. It all fits. Monster is on the MiB side of the equation.

Things that don't fit. Ben calling on him from underneath his house. Monster being their judge.

Re: LOST - Season 5 Discussion Thread

Rusty_James — Fri, 15 May 2009 10:45:58 -0000

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The statue is definitely not blown up by the bomb. Sawyer and crew are looking at it at some point presumed to be far in the past (it predates a well) and then they flash forward to 1974 and they don't see it any more.
It's probably destroyed by whatever brings the Black Rock inland.

Re: LOST - Season 5 Discussion Thread

Rusty_James — Fri, 15 May 2009 10:43:10 -0000

@ which is why the sentence you quoted of mine is asking "why". At every turn in these episodes the writers drained the story of its suspense.

You missed my point about as severely as possible.

@ to defend these episodes on basis of their suspense to me is absurd.

Who's defended it on the basis of suspense? I don't think anyone's said that.

@ Explain to me why we have a Juliet flashback about her parent's divorce?

That scene does stick out like a sore thumb. All the other FB's are about Jacob's encounters with the oceanic passengers. And then they throw in this unrelated Juliet one. The scene is about Juliet's motivation. Rose and Bernard's marital bliss vs her parents broken marriage. This ultimately causes her to doubt Sawyers fidelity and alters her motivation.

@ why did Ms Hawkings want the Oceanic 6 to come back, did she know that it would result in the killing of Jacob

This is my theory about the events of season 5. Back in season 3 Black Hat Jacob successfully altered the course of events. Via Desmond he successfully brought the Widmore's frieghter to the island which resulted in th O6 leaving the island. Therefore Jack, Kate Sayid and Hurley were not be on the island when it reverted back to 1977 where Ms Hawking knew they were supposed to be because she met them.
Ms. Hawking sent them back so they would be where they were they were supposed to be and to do what they were supposed to do. That's what it's all been about. The Incident. Jacob's trying to cause it, Evil Jacob is trying to prevent it. The Incident brings 815 to the island. Which as we see is what Jacob has been engineering for years. Evil Jacob doesn't like people coming to the Island. But in the larger sense its about these two different time lines. One time line were everything's pre-destined and WH, H and another where people have freewill. This is the show's war that we hear about. It's at the core of every mystery and character.
Take Locke for instance. He's changed, he's different. Is it because he's finally freed himself from the past and found his true self? Or has he been taken over , controlled, by some outside force. There are bread crumbs we can follow in both directions, evidence to support either conclussion. Only in retrospect, with 20/20 hindsight does the answer seem telegraphed. But in fact, you had not correctly guessed the out come. Honestly, your so busy complaining that the shows not philosophizing correctly that you're missing all its philosophizing.

Re: LOST - Season 5 Discussion Thread

Rusty_James — Fri, 15 May 2009 00:42:00 -0000

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@ Remind me why exactly I should be trembling in shock and awe when lo and behold the scheme comes off without a single hitch.

there's a basic rule of screen writing that says the what is less important than the why. You really seem to be missing the boat with this season left and right. I really think if you happen to rewatch this season you'll find you massively misjudged it.

Overall... I think I'd still pick season 2 as the worst over-all. The Incident goes a long way to save it. It's one of the two best finales (Through The Looking Glass is probably the best)

Re: LOST - Season 5 Discussion Thread

Rusty_James — Thu, 14 May 2009 03:18:13 -0000

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@ She is gifted in using restraint to convey deep emotional conflict

She can do a lot with just a look. That aft glance back at the disappearing submarine.
I don't know about her being the "one true" acting talent of the show (The Neo of the cast). I still love O'Quin and Emmerson.

Can there be any doubt that Rose & Bernard are Adam & Eve? I'm not quite ready to file that case as closed just yet because they were initially dated as older. If they died tomorrow that would mean their corpses were discovered 27 years later. Didn't Locke say they were about 4 or 5 decades old?
I think I just talked myself out of it.

Loved Ben's confront with Jacob. But while he was recalling all those years of doing his bidding. Being told to have patience. Posing as a prophet etc. I feel like there's a lot of story there. That's the stuff I kept wanting to see in Ben's flashbacks. The stuff I was hoping time travel would let us examine.

Still the story of this war between these two entities was pretty rewarding. MiB impersonating Jacob in the cabin. Taking the guise of departed loved ones. Telling Locke to go kill himself so he could take his place. It's all pretty devious. It's kind of like going back to watch old episodes and finding an evil little man you never noticed before peering out at you from under the bed.

And I was pretty close to with some of my predictions.

@ The conflict between two forces is the war Charles Widmore has been talking about. Two conflicting destinies. Like dualistic theism only with fates instead of god's. One represented by Ben, the other represented by Charles.

@ Furthermore, I think the finale of this season is going to be Desmond on the island, during the Incident using his gift to pick which one of two outcomes will happen. After which he'll die. No more Desmond next season.

Desmond didn't die. But that scenario did happen. But with Jack instead of Desmond.

So we have Jacob being this guy who shepards others to the island. Probably wandering the world picking lost souls, selecting them, often leaving them with some possession as a departing gift.
And apparently he was never interested in Locke at all. It was Locke who told Richard he was special. He never spoke to Locke in the cabin, it was MiB. And probably just done to sow jealousy in Ben. Do you think it was MiB who cured his paralysis?
It's consistent with what we've learned. Locke was "blessed" by the smoke monster early on. There's no reason to think he was on Jacob's list. The Others were so impressed by Locke's cured paralysis because it's something that Jacob can't do.
When Ben told Juiliet that Jacob promised to cure her sisters cancer was he lying? How was she cured?

I should've predicted the episode would end with the nuke igniting. it popped into my head but I forgot to write it down.

So I guess now I'm wondering what is Jacob bringing people to the island for? Why doesn't the other guy want them there? Where do these guys come from? Has Jacob just been hanging out under the foot this whole time? Was it the other guy who summoned the freighter to take the Oceanic 6 away? Was it his plan to stop the Incident? When Ben saw his mom was that MiB? Did the DI have some a side in this feud? Is Desmond still on the show? What was Richards' answer to the shadow of the statue riddle? Is Richard from the Black Rock? How does Illana know Jacob? And how do they all survive an atomic bomb?

It would be cool if their plan worked and they land in LAX. And then Jacob has to get them onto another plane and bring them back.

I missed Walt.

Re: LOST - Season 5 Discussion Thread

Rusty_James — Wed, 13 May 2009 01:40:38 -0000

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@ I still think this is the long con.

Maybe they're tricking us, fine. But I think I've proved that Locke meeting Locke does mean that a character can die in the past and be alive in future. It's in no way consistent with that.

Re: LOST - Season 5 Discussion Thread

Rusty_James — Mon, 11 May 2009 20:02:12 -0000

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While I've got you here, could you explain your comments from the cinecast 121 / star trek thread?

RE:
@ the same stuff in Lost you can overlook?

I don’t know why you’ve chosen to thread jack this discussion. But which specific scene in LOST that I said I liked and is exactly like ST are you refering to exactly?

Re: LOST - Season 5 Discussion Thread

Rusty_James — Mon, 11 May 2009 19:54:54 -0000

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@ Locke/Locke proves nonlinearity is legitimized.

If you go back up thread (I don't know why you would, but if you did) you'll see that what I actually advocated way back then was "nonlinear causality". That is causality is intact but does not behave in a linear manner. That is the cause/effect logical pairing remains intact but it's arbitrary to declare which is cause and which is effect because before and after do not exist the same way in time travel logic. X -> Y can be rewritten as X <- Y regardless of which came "first" because "first" is now a relative concept. However what remains true is that Y is made both possible and necessary by the existence of X and X, Y.
For instance: JFK dies BECAUSE LHO shoots him. However, in time travel logic it is just as valid to say LHO shot kennedy BECAUSE JFK dies at that moment. See?
Now here's why the scene with two Locke's supports what I'm saying and contradicts what you're saying. Lets call Locke with the bullet wound Locke A and Locke who sent Richard Locke B. From the perspective of Lockes, A precedes B, A is "first". But B exists because A was told what to do by B who already did it. So clearly neither can be "first". Linear-ity has been disproved.
However causality has been proved because B still had to gather up Richard and go out into the jungle to meet A and tell him all that. Without causality he could go do whatever the fuck he wants, in fact he could die and A would still meet B because of our new rule WH,W (Whatever Happens, Whatever).

See, because B still had to go meet A it proves that the chain of events is still necessary. Every point in the chain makes every other point possible. There can't be any gaps.

As I recall you had a similar problem when the same dilema was presented in Time Crimes.

Re: LOST - Season 5 Discussion Thread

Rusty_James — Mon, 11 May 2009 18:40:20 -0000

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@ Someone from the past will die while his/her present day counterpart still exists.

can't happen.

Re: LOST - Season 5 Discussion Thread

Rusty_James — Thu, 07 May 2009 21:43:45 -0000

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I had assumed Daniel had already been born. But they've been so sloppy with age and dates this season. Ethan's 27, Charlotte's 35?! Whatever.

It is weird that we haven't seen Monster in 1977, it does seem like they're trying to imply that it doesn't exist yet. Put me down as skeptical though. Maybe it's bottled up and then gets out. Maybe they have to release it because of the Incident. It's been implied that the sonic fence exists primarily to keep the monster out.
Maybe the others have it penned up because of their truce. They've disabled their security system temporarily.

Re: LOST - Season 5 Discussion Thread

Rusty_James — Thu, 07 May 2009 21:34:21 -0000

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@ Rusty, no "great" episodes this season? Maybe we're watching two different versions of the show

Look back on past seasons and their best episodes. Deus Ex Machina from S1, Man of Science, Man of faith or Orientation from S2, Man Behind the Curtain from S3, and probably The Constant from S4. What episodes from this season were as good at those?

I'd probably rank this season as: Follow the Leader,Jughead, Dead is Dead, LeFleur, Some Like It Hoth, Life and Times..., and then there's maybe a few other decent episodes, some filler and then 316, The Lie and Little Prince in a three way death match for the crown for Worst Episode of Lost.

Re: LOST - Season 5 Discussion Thread

Rusty_James — Thu, 07 May 2009 02:53:53 -0000

Spoilers! Yes, it's two hours.

Re: LOST - Season 5 Discussion Thread

Rusty_James — Thu, 07 May 2009 00:12:36 -0000

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How'd they get the bomb in there?

Monster. Easy.

If John's not on Jacob's side than who's side is her on?

For some possible insight into that see this Rusty James classic? http://morepop.rowthree.com...

Where's little Ben?

I hope we see more of him next week. I want to learn more about his ascendence. Is it really possible he's never seen Jacob.
Surely he's got to have some mojo left.

If Jacob isn't real then what's the Others game? What are they working for?

Something diabolically awesome no doubt.
At this point I hope Jacob is true man-behind-the-curtain con job.

The Shadow of the Statue people working for Ben

Definitely not. Maybe they're on Locke's anti-Jacob side.

Rose and Bernard?

They gotta be Adam and Eve.

More Walt?

He's been in every Finale so far.

Will my predictions for Desmnd come true?

Yes.

Re: LOST - Season 5 Discussion Thread

Rusty_James — Wed, 06 May 2009 23:55:28 -0000

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whoa! Cool cliffhanger. Can't wait for the final!

Re: Lost Reverse-Engineered

Rusty_James — Tue, 05 May 2009 23:02:27 -0000

second disc of season 3... now didn't they split 3 into 3 and 3.5? So it's still the begining of season 3 then? Or am I wrong.

In my opinion it's season 4 that is terrible. And then there's season which will come a package called season 4.5 but was in fact shown on television a year after season 4 and is therefore a different season regardless of what everyone else says.

Season 5 is better than 4 but continues to suffer from some of the season 4 set backs.

Re: Lost Reverse-Engineered

Rusty_James — Tue, 05 May 2009 19:34:00 -0000

So... second half of the 3rd season? Toward the end? More toward the middle? Where?

Re: Lost Reverse-Engineered

Rusty_James — Tue, 05 May 2009 18:13:54 -0000

much better

Re: LOST - Season 5 Discussion Thread

Rusty_James — Tue, 05 May 2009 16:23:20 -0000

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I thought I made it pretty clear I wasn't about to give it away. What with me being pissed about it. It's such a small thing but I love discovering the focus of the episode each week.

Why don't you give us a bullet point run down of your main talking points for The Variable. I heard the producers said it was one of their best episodes. I don't see that at all.

I don't think they've had a truly great episode this season. The closest is Jughead and LeFleur. Given the potential for DF and the fact that (I guess) that was his send off it should've been much better.

Re: Lost Reverse-Engineered

Rusty_James — Tue, 05 May 2009 15:47:04 -0000

@ I mean really, was it absolutely necessary to convey that the character has slacked off and become lazy

absolutely necessary? I don't know, I thought it was a good way to visualize the deterioration of the fleet. And also the passage of time. Lee looked like shit, which was awesome.

Maybe it's my different perspective from having seen the final seasons. The problem with BSG is not too many(1) fat suits.

Also, the episode that you complained about that begins with Lee floating in space... isn't that the conclussion of the Admr. Kane storyline? That's a great episode.

If you've seen the fat suit that means your into season 3. How far are you?

Re: Lost Reverse-Engineered

Rusty_James — Tue, 05 May 2009 14:18:56 -0000

I loved Lee in the fat suit. He wish he could've been fat all season.