Disqus - Latest Comments for P17

Re: Should the left celebrate the 4th of July?

P17 — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 09:11:53 -0000

Very funny, Phil -- you have a sense of humor after all! :) Nice!

Twarn't my post! If it was, it probably would have ended with one of my dreary pleas to get you to elaborate on your emigration research (again).

I'd also like to know exactly where (and how) basic Marxist ideas were necessarily "challenged".

Re: Should the left celebrate the 4th of July?

P17 — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 10:39:42 -0000

..."Hey now, that was unfair. You admit they have a certain connotation, then suggest I should have known you weren't using it."...

Point taken. Sarcasm doesn't come off well in print. You think I would have learned that by now! My apologies.

I really liked your America-bashing rants -- they've given us all something to think about. I just didn't want you to use one to answer ALL of my questions. And I STILL want to know about your emigration research (out of pure curiosity)!

Re: Should the left celebrate the 4th of July?

P17 — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:47:35 -0000

..."If you don't disagree, then why are you mocking me with words like "diatribe," "rant" and "manifesto"? Why not just say: "Right on!"?"...

I thought I did. You assume that my words are somehow "mocking" you. They are not, nor have they ever been. I'm using the words without their traditionally negative connotation -- I LOVE a good rant! Now which one of us is reacting defensively? I have a tremendous amount of respect for anyone who can completely and concisely defend their opinions (whether I agree with them or not).

..."I really don't understand why you'd be reacting negatively or defensively to my comments unless they offend you somehow. All I'm doing is speaking my mind honestly and describing the situation as I see it. So what if I am "America bashing"? Does that bother you? If so, why? Do you identify yourself with America no matter what it does? I sure don't. You can take a dump on the flag and set it on fire in the middle of the street for all I care."...

Again with the psychoanalysis!!! You read WAY too much into what I'm saying. What gives you the impression that I'm reacting defensively or negatively to what you said? Why would you assume that I'm offended by America-bashing? I've burned many a flag, and defended many a flag-burner in my life! I'm merely collecting opinions (which is why I wanted the CPUSA to chime in, and why I keep asking you for more opinions/clarification of your ideas). Who here couldn't use a good kick in the ol' complacency?

I'm really not the semantic pugilist that you seem to think I am, and I would never claim to be at the current state of knowledge of most everyone else here. I'm just a garden-variety dullard sticking a toe in the red water here. You might find this hard to believe, but I am genuinely interested in what you have to say! I'm very sorry to hear that many people have reacted negatively to your ideas/views in the past (as indicated in your eariler postings). I assure you -- your "paranoia" isn't warranted (at least not with me). You assume I have an ego when it comes to discussing these ideas -- I don't. If I "needle" you with the occasional strong word, it's (usually) only to get you elaborate -- there's no malice or ulterior motive involved. If I were truly offended or annoyed by anything you said, I probably would have left this thread a LONG time ago.

And I'm not trying to lead you down the "comparing country X to the good ol' USA" path, either. Honestly, that never even dawned on me (until you brought it up)! I actually want to hear what you've learned in the course of your "research" in this area. I'd love a postcard, too! :)

Re: Should the left celebrate the 4th of July?

P17 — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:10:19 -0000

I suppose I asked for that diatribe, didn't I? When I said "and why", I wasn't really expecting another anti-American rant (which are a dime a dozen, especially on the internet, although yours is better than most I've read). Your ham-handed, amateur psychoanalysis of some of what I said aside, I find little to disagree with in your "manifesto" here.

But I'd still like to know if you've found a country(ies) that might be a good candidate to which to emigrate. What places do you dislike least? What other sorts of solutions do you have (other than to emigrate)? Can nothing be done "from the inside"?

And I'd also like to know how you (the leadership of the CPUSA) respond to Phil's assertion that you're all just "going along to get along".

Re: Should the left celebrate the 4th of July?

P17 — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:27:21 -0000

I'd be interested to hear what you thought of the movie "Schindler's List". By your logic, he shouldn't have done what he did (or at least not the way he did it). I actually have heard people make the case that he shouldn't have, using the logic that you did in your second paragraph.

I'm still not sold on your premise that we are ALL (or even most of us, simply by virtue of being American citizens) part of a global oppressor class, and that there really aren't truly oppressed workers (i.e. a proletariat) in the USA, but I laud your desire (both in thought and practice) to live simply and free of the desire to maximize your consumption.

And best of luck finding a country (to which to emigrate) that isn't imperialist in at least some regard! I don't think you'll find what you're really looking for (although I would not presume to know exactly what it is you're looking for, so I'll digress), but I'd be interested to hear what countries are on your short-list (and why).

Re: Should the left celebrate the 4th of July?

P17 — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:21:56 -0000

There's no need to have it "forced" on you. If you're the righteous radical you seem to like to portray yourself as, then you should willingly downsize your lifestyle now for the benefit of the rest of the people on the planet. You seem to like to point the finger of hypocrisy at the rest of us (and honestly, I don't know whether I find that irritating, or admirable). If this is as important as you say, what have YOU done to distribute what you have among the rest of us earthlings? Granted, most people in America are not willing to "do the right thing globally" yet. And until we have it forced on us (which I'm certainly willing to do as well), I can still radically share what I have on an individual level -- and I do. Do you?

And you seem to be reading things into my posting (and Anthony's) that weren't said. I don't disagree with the fact that "American working poor" may be a bit of a misnomer when compared to the rest of the world's poor. But when what would be considered the protelariat make substantially less than the capital/means of production owners in ANY country, I would certainly consider that oppressed (yes, oppressed!) group to be "impoverished", regardless of how wealthy that country may be!

I think we need to define "poverty" before we go any further. I get the impression that there is some universal, planet-wide threshold that you have in mind for what would be considered to be a "poverty line". If such a threshold exists, what is it, in your opinion? And if you do reply to this post, please don't tell me (again) that the vast majority of the people in the USA (even if they're in what we consider to be poverty) are above that threshold -- you've made that perfectly clear already. You seem to think that I disagree with you much more than I actually do!

Re: Should the left celebrate the 4th of July?

P17 — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 14:42:27 -0000

Interesting post Phil, and your point about America's "poor" as compared to other countries' "poor" is well taken. And I don't think many people here would disagree with the fact that it's American consumption that fuels the repressive regimes in many countries.

But how far do you think Marxist ideas would have traveled if Marx, Engels, and other "founders" had made such comparisons between one country's "proletariat" and another's? The standard of living of the "poor" in each country will always vary (among countries and within each individual country), and each country will have its own "repressed" class. No country oppresses its oppressed in the same way. But wasn't the original aim of Marxism to unite oppressed workers everywhere?

American workers are well aware of the situation of the working poor abroad (or maybe I just like to think they are), but that doesn't change the fact that American workers are often being taken advantage of (comparatively speaking, of course). The poor in each country have to contend with an oppressor(s) of some kind. We should focus on what the working poor in each country have in common, and not pit them against one another based on what system happens to be oppressing them. Abused workers in EVERY country need to hear the message if progress is to be made.

Re: Should the left celebrate the 4th of July?

P17 — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:24:32 -0000

When you say thank "this country", to whom/what are you referring? Does anything in the original posting by Santi Suthinithet give you the idea that the CPUSA is not thankful for the freedoms we're allowed in the USA?