Disqus - Latest Comments for KuraFire

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Thu, 28 Mar 2013 06:30:17 -0000

See, I was willing to entertain the notion you were legitimately interested in gaining a better understanding of how dick jokes create an exclusionary culture to women, but then you got all condescending and acted like you knew everything about this highly complex stuff that people study _as their career_ because it's so multifaceted. So you prevented me from giving you the benefit of the doubt, so I'll just give you this: http://www.shakesville.com/...

After you finish reading that: the way rape jokes create a culture that causes actual rape to happen in the world beyond the Web, in that very same way, dongle jokes create a culture of hostile, macho behavior that alienates women. (see also this article explaining it in the context of unintended racism: http://www.standardista.com... )

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Thu, 28 Mar 2013 06:23:45 -0000

You realize actual lawyers have already pointed out that *Adria* is on really solid legal footing here, and the guys not so much, right?

http://www.mercurynews.com/...

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Thu, 28 Mar 2013 05:44:50 -0000

Aww, you think that making a white knight accusation somehow doesn't reveal your sexist views while saying absolutely nothing about me. How adorable!

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Thu, 28 Mar 2013 05:41:45 -0000

3 things:

1. You don't have privacy rights “no matter what” as you seem to think. When you're a perpetrator in an environment, especially a public one, you relinquish those privacy rights. (This is also why citizen's arrests are possible, for cases where it involves criminal behavior)

2. The guys admitted their behavior was out of line, and U.S. Civil Law is actually pretty solid in this regard: their behavior violated it, giving Adria full legal protection to take the photo.

3: She did not "anger an entire community" — she angered a bunch of self-important, privileged people, many of whom have been incredibly more divisive and offensive with their behavior than Adria has been. There is a huge segment of the community that defends her, and lots of people & companies (myself included) who are leaving / have left SendGrid for their capitulation to terrorists instead of taking a stand in defense of one of their most widely-respected employees.

You represent nothing but a small yet highly vocal minority. Most people outside of your sub-community find it utterly contemptible how much of that sub-community's membership has behaved. It's not a particularly shining group of people you're trying to represent here, you know.

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Wed, 27 Mar 2013 21:31:32 -0000

Here, have another hug: (hug)

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Wed, 27 Mar 2013 21:31:07 -0000

Aw, you really do need a hug. (hug)

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Wed, 27 Mar 2013 21:11:19 -0000

You’re right, that isn't what you’ve been doing at all.

Oh, wait.

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Wed, 27 Mar 2013 21:08:30 -0000

"you want to bring in historical context and societal influences and all that BS into it"

Yeah, I really hate it when people weigh in the entirety of a situation before considering what point of view to hold. The world would be so much better if we just ignored all of that “real stuff” that “matters” and only focus on whatever we felt like.

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Wed, 27 Mar 2013 21:06:44 -0000

"she made a decision, then ran to the internet with it, and caused all of this."

Uhm. What *caused* all of this was the guys making inappropriate, exclusionary jokes.

But great job absolving men of any personal responsibility, and only holding women accountable for things. Not showing your double standard there, nope.

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Wed, 27 Mar 2013 21:04:36 -0000

Oh dude, I'm sorry to burst your "the world isn't as bad as it seems!" bubble, but yes they are: http://www.buzzfeed.com/cou...

When a woman dares to speak out about something, threats of rape & violence are essentially guaranteed. THAT'S what's wrong with our culture, online in particular.

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Wed, 27 Mar 2013 21:01:45 -0000

You're glossing over the fact that I pointed out that she *is* the victim in this.

And I'm not glossing over her handling: it's been thoroughly explained and defended already:

http://www.forbes.com/sites...

http://scientopia.org/blogs...

http://freethoughtblogs.com...

http://www.dailydot.com/opi...

http://freethoughtblogs.com...

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Wed, 27 Mar 2013 20:59:40 -0000

You can change your religion, you weren't born with it*. You're also not systemically harassed by society for being Catholic, or frequently threatened with rape or death for being Catholic, or earn less money for being Catholic, or are likely to be ignored for promotions or raises for being Catholic. So, your example is a pretty big false equivalence.

* Sure, you were raised with it by your parents. So blame them for not giving you the freedom of choice and agency in this matter, and/or blame religious society for not giving you that freedom.

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Wed, 27 Mar 2013 20:55:11 -0000

Oh, and in these two pieces by PZ Myers:

http://freethoughtblogs.com...

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Wed, 27 Mar 2013 20:54:31 -0000

Yes, because the criticism over her handling has already been thoroughly broken down and explained as being wrong. By myself above and also in these pieces:

http://www.forbes.com/sites...

http://scientopia.org/blogs...

http://freethoughtblogs.com...

http://www.dailydot.com/opi...

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Wed, 27 Mar 2013 20:50:49 -0000

You keep dismissing the articles without reading them. You also keep misrepresenting it (strawman) by saying it's a one-sided perspective, rather than acknowledging that what it actually says it that the "one-sided perspective" is about NOT blaming Adria (the victim) as a starting point.

Pretty reasonable starting point for any civil discourse, if you ask me. You want to examine a complex structure of politics, systemic discrimination, harassment, and exclusionary behavior both on– and offline? Blaming the person who is feeling the negative effects of the exclusionary behavior and brings it to light is not the right way to do so.

You start by not blaming the victim, and then examine the actions, the circumstances, and the external influences that all contribute to the case. Only after you examine all of that can you reveal whether or not the victim was to blame for something. And that's exactly what the articles linked do.

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Wed, 27 Mar 2013 20:43:27 -0000

Yes, because you've done such a great job showing anything but a one-sided perspective yourself. By your own measure, you don't see reality either. Only difference is that between the two of us, I'm the only one who has provided any resources and breakdowns of arguments.

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Wed, 27 Mar 2013 20:41:15 -0000

Arguing that she's at fault is victim-blaming.

Being made to feel excluded (by systemic behavior) from a professional setting that is meant to be for everyone *is*, in fact, what makes you a victim.

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Wed, 27 Mar 2013 20:36:29 -0000

What do you want to call it when guys are allowed to make infinite amounts of sexual jokes that make women uncomfortable and eventually has the effect of driving women out of the field (attrition rate of women in STEM is ~50%, primary cause: macho, hostile culture [1])? Legitimate question: what would you call that?

The jokes themselves weren't sexist, no. But they do contribute to creating a sexist _culture_, and that's what she called out (and both guys agreed about that).

[1] http://www.rachelappel.com/...

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Wed, 27 Mar 2013 20:33:57 -0000

Of course I'm a lifetime member of the awesome UberHypocriteFeminazis club! Why, aren't you? You're missing out, man. We got it pretty solid, here.

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Wed, 27 Mar 2013 20:30:17 -0000

Do you need a hug?

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Wed, 27 Mar 2013 20:21:31 -0000

"so its sexist for men to make a joke amongst themselves, but NOT sexist to assume that all men are unapproachable and will violently kill and rape anyone who criticizes them? "

Consider the risk involved between the two. Also, consider the power dynamic in society, and in tech.

If the likelihood of me stalking you later today with the intent to beat you to a bloody pulp (or shoot you with a gun) was high, just for the way you talk to me, would you really be continuing? Imagine that being a constant, real-life threat, every time you write a comment online. After years of living with that concern, do you think you'd still be writing such hateful comments all the time? Really?

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Wed, 27 Mar 2013 20:10:56 -0000

Before we see a rehash of all the many arguments repeated ad naseum, here are some breakdowns, summaries of the articles found here: http://j.mp/smart-articles-...

Context matters -> jokes don't always belong everywhere. If you don't understand that, learn about it. The type of jokes these guys were making in a professional setting contribute to an exclusionary culture. Worse, they are actually fireable offenses under U.S. Civil Law, and would be classified under the Sexual Harassment policies by any HR department that chooses to enforce the law.

Culture of systemic harassment -> Adria reported something that contributes to an unwelcoming culture to women. All parties involved—PyCon, the two guys themselves, Adria—agree on this point. Most people thankfully realize that her reporting of it was fine, but want to nitpick on her method. For that, see below. If you don't think it was fine, reconsider your point of view and read the articles linked above.

Victim blaming -> Adria felt diminished by exclusionary jokes (again: the guys making the jokes AGREE ABOUT THIS), she reported it to the staff, and the staff thanked her for it after dealing with the matter. That one of 'm got fired is because of his own behavior, not because he got caught in public doing so. If you blame Adria, you're blaming the victim rather than the problem. (think: is an employee stealing stuff from the office wrong, or is he/she only wrong if someone finds out and he gets fired?)

Disproportionate reaction -> his joke was lame, but fairly innocuous on the "offending behavior" spectrum. Her reaction was quite public, but that doesn't particularly matter. He was behaving inappropriately in public; when you do that, other people in that same public space have the right to record you and report you. She wasn't breaking any laws or violating the CoC by how she reported it, but it *is* understandable if you're uneasy by this public approach. However, consider the near-future filled with Google Glass-driven public reporting of people's behaviors. Now consider that maybe we should all think a bit harder about what kind of effect our behavior in public spaces can have on other people, lest someone else records it and shares it with others—publicly or privately, for both ways it can come back to bite you in the ass.

Cause/effect -> Playhaven made it fairly clear that it wasn't this single incident that made them fire the guy. Else, why wouldn't the other guy have been fired, too? And also, they said "after a thorough investigation" — clearly there was more to ot than this one lame, exclusionary joke. Regardless, it was HIS action that got him fired, not the fact that Adria reported it. If HE hadn't made that joke, there wouldn't have been anything for her to report.

Photo taking vs. confronting directly -> Look at the #IAskedPolitely stuff on Twitter if you don't understand why saying "she should've confronted them directly" is not a defensible argument. Doing so comes with a risk for people, something you might not be aware of, so check out #IAskedPolitely before making this argument again.

Private reporting to PyCon -> For the argument "she should've reported it to PyCon privately": this tacitly condones and permits such behavior and thus keeps the systemic culture problems unchallenged. Secondly, there are infinitely more instances/examples of private reporting having zero effect, with conference organizers ignoring the complaint.

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Wed, 27 Mar 2013 19:00:39 -0000

Uhm. You just agreed to my point, and then tried to use your agreement to my point to argue that I’m not behaving rationally.

Okay.

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Wed, 27 Mar 2013 18:56:04 -0000

About that "history" of hers -> http://www.technologywoman....

Also, you're using a typical rapist's defense tactic: to undermine the credibility of the victim by pointing to her prior actions. It's actually quite disgraceful you would lower yourself to that kind of behavior. That's not okay. That's not how civil human beings deal with things.

As for the "HOW": she said "Not cool." The end. That was it. She wasn't looking to get internet outrage, she wasn't "rallying the troops"; she was reporting it to PyCon staff without disrupting the talk she was in, the way those two guys were doing.

Re: Fired SendGrid Developer Evangelist Adria Richards Speaks Out

KuraFire — Wed, 27 Mar 2013 18:52:25 -0000

There was nothing sociopathic about her behavior. Are you sure you know what that word means?

For one, context matters. She made those jokes within a context where it is okay to make those jokes; those guys made those jokes within a context where it is NOT okay to make those jokes.

I don't have a problem with the jokes the guys made; I have a problem with the context they made them in.