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Re: The Christian root of human rights - Commentary - Jamaica Gleaner - Tuesday | March 13, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:22:23 -0000

Howard, I believe you may have gotten your concepts a bit confused. Humanism ('extreme' or otherwise) had nothing to do with nazism, stalinism, and all the atrocities that both entailed. You might wish to consider that in the case of nazism, Hitler was a Roman Catholic, who proclaimed (in Mein Kampf and elsewhere) that eliminating the Jews was "the Lord's work"). Stalin, an ex-seminarian largely co-opted the methodology of religious domination (as practised by Czarist Russia/Orthodox Church) in subjugating those who failed to "comply" with the new "religion" of Stalinism. It is often claimed that Stalin was an atheist, as if that automatically translates or translated into his psychopathic campaign of terror. Even assuming that he was an atheist, this is of no more moment than the fact that he had a moustache. Hitler too, had a moustache. Do we say that they committed genocide because they both had moustaches? Atheism, a lack of belief in a supreme being, doesn't lead to immorality, any more than having a moustache does.

Humanism, unlike religion, is essentially about recognizing and protecting the inherent worth and dignity of every human, regardless of extrinsic characteristics like race, gender, age, or other factors like belief. So being an 'extreme' humanist, by this measure, isn't likely to harm a soul, only the arrogance of religion to impose its piety on all. When it comes to atrocities, there is simply no comparison to be made between religion and (secular) humanism. To do otherwise is to construct an equivalence that is palpably, and historically false.

Re: The Christian root of human rights - Commentary - Jamaica Gleaner - Tuesday | March 13, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:06:42 -0000

Thx for your endorsement, Javed! You are quite right. My presentation was primarily about how religion has served to move Jamaica's constitution further towards the theocratic end of the secularism/theocracy spectrum. Fact is, Christianity (and other like faiths) have never embraced a theory of human rights based on universality, equality, and interdependence. The history of religion (particularly of the dominant monotheistic religions) tells that story better than I could...

Re: The Christian root of human rights - Commentary - Jamaica Gleaner - Tuesday | March 13, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:07:41 -0000

Well, Stoneyage, I just want to get a conversation started. If change results, that'll be a bonus.

Re: The Christian root of human rights - Commentary - Jamaica Gleaner - Tuesday | March 13, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:09:04 -0000

You ever wonder why (a) the bible uses the term "submit" and (b) why husbands aren't required to submit as well? Why not simply an injunction that husbands and wives should love each other, full stop?

Re: The Christian root of human rights - Commentary - Jamaica Gleaner - Tuesday | March 13, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 16:55:09 -0000

Um...not exactly sure the point you're seeking to make. Even "the heart of man is infinitely wicked", not sure that that displaces or contradicts the more fundamental premise that all humans have inherent worth and dignity...which indeed is worth protecting from those with "wicked hearts". Fact that somebody might be wicked, doesn't derogate from their inherent humanity, or right to be treated like a human being. That's what secular humanism is about, unlike religions like christianity.

Re: The Christian root of human rights - Commentary - Jamaica Gleaner - Tuesday | March 13, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 18:15:06 -0000

Wisdom in subjugating women? Ok then... And getting worse? In whose world?

Re: The Christian root of human rights - Commentary - Jamaica Gleaner - Tuesday | March 13, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 20:33:03 -0000

Obviously, you either haven't taken the time to understand what I said, or worse, lack the capacity to do so. Peace.

Re: The Christian root of human rights - Commentary - Jamaica Gleaner - Tuesday | March 13, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:25:56 -0000

I hear you Anthoniusmattios, but I think that you're ignoring a fundamental issue: the "ultra-conservatism" that you refer to, is expressly endorsed by the same bible that "radical" and "moderate" believers rely on as their holy book. The bible quite expressly prescribes death for homosexuals, even if you, as a Christian choose not to follow that. So sorry to say, but christianity is the problem; it certainly has manifested itself as a problem in imposing its beliefs on those who don't subscribe to them. That is certainly the case with Jamaica's Charter of Rights that not only defines marriage in hetero-normative terms, but expressly excludes any protection from laws that discriminate on the ground of sexual orientation. Further, the Charter expressly bars any challenge to prevailing laws on sexual offences, obscenity, and abortion. This automatically bars individuals from challenging laws on buggery, for example. Maybe this doesn't represent a problem for you as a christian; it does, I think for those (believers or not) who consider that the government has no business legislating private morality.

Re: Human rights born of Christianity - Letters - Jamaica Gleaner - Saturday | March 17, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Sat, 17 Mar 2012 09:39:22 -0000

Oh dear oh dear. The goodly reverend should stick to theology and stay away from lecturing on subjects he evidently knows nothing about. Claiming that human rights is descended from christianity is like claiming that babies are delivered by a stork.

Re: Religion's overreach a threat to rights for all - In Focus - Jamaica Gleaner - Sunday | March 18, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Sun, 18 Mar 2012 12:55:39 -0000

Thank you Johnny.

Re: Sobers 'baits' Thwaites to debate - Letters - Jamaica Gleaner - Sunday | March 25, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Sun, 25 Mar 2012 16:58:35 -0000

Indeed, Roanja.

Re: Sobers 'baits' Thwaites to debate - Letters - Jamaica Gleaner - Sunday | March 25, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Sun, 25 Mar 2012 22:32:31 -0000

So religion is distinguishable from Christianity? And "secular authorities" are no better - with Russia and China as your examples? Oh dear, oh dear, I think 'avid educator' might be a misnomer...

Re: Secularism, not religion, protects human dignity - In Focus - Jamaica Gleaner - Sunday | April 15, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Sun, 15 Apr 2012 16:36:40 -0000

Mr. Reynolds, what I often find is that arrogance is usually the twin of ignorance. In your case, you don't even know what atheism is. Perhaps you missed this line in my article:"Atheism is simply a lack of belief in god(s). Nothing more". So if one is looking for an illustration of idiocy - your assumption that I'm attempting to demonstrate the non-existence of God is at the top of the list. Similarly, if you're looking for an authentic illustration of arrogance, you need look no further than this statement:

"There is an over-abundance of evidence to establish that God exists and atheists know he does, but they have become blinded. Mr Sobers you should spend your energies seeking after Truth rather than this futile attempt to demonstrate that the source of your energies does not exist."

Sound familiar?

Re: Secularism, not religion, protects human dignity - In Focus - Jamaica Gleaner - Sunday | April 15, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Sun, 15 Apr 2012 19:22:55 -0000

And it seems from this statement "The whole lot of you first degree liberals with PhDs", that you don't even know the difference between a first degree and Ph.D. Cluelessness? Check your own post...

Re: Secularism, not religion, protects human dignity - In Focus - Jamaica Gleaner - Sunday | April 15, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 06:41:32 -0000

Thx Javed

Re: Secularism, not religion, protects human dignity - In Focus - Jamaica Gleaner - Sunday | April 15, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 06:43:23 -0000

Well, I tell you what many atheists don't subscribe to - and that's stupidity. But we are more than willing to respect the rights of folks like you who might so subscribe...

Re: No place for theology - Letters - Jamaica Gleaner - Saturday | April 21, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 07:12:55 -0000

Very well said Javed!

Re: No place for theology - Letters - Jamaica Gleaner - Saturday | April 21, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 09:52:43 -0000

So when will you get around to addressing what Javed actually said, rather than rant about what he didn't?

Re: LETTER OF THE DAY - Religious overreach more taxing than Gov't - Letters - Jamaica Gleaner - Tuesday | April 24, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Tue, 24 Apr 2012 08:59:32 -0000

I applaud you Joan French. It's more than time to push back against the encroachment of religion/religiosity on our public spaces. Public/secular spaces are funded by ALL taxpayers, not all of whom are believers, or even if they are, don't necessarily wish to be forced to go to church when they're on the business of paying their taxes. Oh for a Jeffersonian wall of separation in Jamaica...

Re: Gays should stop burning fire on free speech - Letters - Jamaica Gleaner - Monday | May 7, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Mon, 07 May 2012 06:57:46 -0000

What hysterical nonsense! Where in the world is expressing opposition to homosexuality a criminal offence? How about offering some facts, instead of just parroting paranoia?

Re: Gays' threat to free speech - In Focus - Jamaica Gleaner - Sunday | May 6, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Mon, 07 May 2012 07:00:46 -0000

Ian, this has to be one of the most putrid columns I've ever seen from you. Big on paranoia and propaganda, small on evidence and reason.

Re: Stop engaging in gay rights lobbying - Commentary - Jamaica Gleaner - Saturday | May 19, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Sat, 19 May 2012 11:29:03 -0000

Mr. Gillespie, when last I checked, Jamaica remains nominally a democracy, and not a theocracy. The fact that a majority of Jamaicans are opposed to homosexuality doesn't confer legitimacy on this view, nor does it confer a right to impose this view on those who don't share it. Marjoritarian rule is not democracy, it's tyranny.

Where exactly has the Gleaner tried to sell the idea that monetary gain is achievable by pandering to powerful nations like the US and Britain? I think this claim arises more from your imagination than the pages of the Gleaner. Repeatedly, the Gleaner has done little more than advocate for the equal rights of gay people under the law - and in that respect, has repeatedly called for the repeal of the law that criminalizes buggery.

I'm always amused by how exercised you religionists get over homosexuality - as reflecting some egregious violation of your "family values". Seriously, where is this "moral rectitude" of which you speak, when it comes to the horrendous violence meted out to the most vulnerable in Jamaica - the poor, women, children? Where are these family values when women and children are the subjects of sexual predation - primarily by those who beat the same bible that you do?

Actually yes, I think it's high time that we get rid of ALL religion, religious rituals and symbols in all public spaces. Really, who do you think you are to impose your beliefs on everybody else??

Re: Stop engaging in gay rights lobbying - Commentary - Jamaica Gleaner - Saturday | May 19, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Sun, 20 May 2012 17:51:57 -0000

There is not law that criminalizes homosexuality per se, only certain sexual acts between men. There are no laws that criminalize sexual acts between women.

And perhaps, if you did some research, you'd discover that homosexuality does exist in the animal world.

Re: Stop engaging in gay rights lobbying - Commentary - Jamaica Gleaner - Saturday | May 19, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Sun, 20 May 2012 17:59:11 -0000

You should have a good look at your bible and its own embrace of depravity before you toss that accusation around at others. Slavery, incest, murder, genocide, racism, infanticide, yep, - all ordained by your precious "god".

Re: LETTER OF THE DAY - Religious Right cannot steamroll others' rights - Letters - Jamaica Gleaner - Wednesday | November 21, 2012

Hilaire Sobers — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 12:43:23 -0000

Thank you very much, folks, for your kind and supportive feedback. If this letter helps to mobilize secular Jamaicans to stand up to religious tyranny, I'll be very glad!