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Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Dr_Who — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 20:21:41 -0000

I haven't actually looked at any of them and kind of don't want to after the Ninja dude's comments, Well put argument and stats are hard to deny, though seem to be difficult to pick out of the thread in between the weird moral rants and sniping about definitions. I would only have browsed then looking for things that I may buy, but his starving family make me look elsewhere.

Still think you should do a Joomla SuperMarket

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Dr_Who — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 20:18:36 -0000

:) Great attitude, you won't keel over from a heart attack ;). Your stuff is bound to be on the warez, I like it (I have a few bits, but all paid for). Never fear good stuff will show up there.

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Dr_Who — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 12:07:17 -0000

He he, great analogy.

I am glad to hear you are considering more demos. I think many hosts have ioncube and/or similar installed as standard, and it is free and easy to do if not. It also appears (at the moment anyway) to be too good to crack. The shame is that the code is then encrypted and it is harder for someone like me to learn from it. But I guess that is the real cost of this piracy (for me anyway).

I also believe in user to user support though, and all sites should have active forums if it can at all be encouraged. Ticket systems are moving away from the community aspect of support, and whilst are not a terrible idea in themselves means people cannot search the forums for possibly already answered questions Forums also give potential customers a good idea of the kinds of problems people have and should help them decide if they are likely to be able to deal with it or not.

Support shouldn't be just developer to customer in an ideal world, I like the idea of being a 'good customer' as it were and helping out if I can. This also means that the real programmers can be pushing the technology further (I have to hope that, rather than the more cynical view of sitting there raking in cash, as you are aware people can view other groups of people in a variety of ways). It is all about getting the best website technologies no? That's why you want to write better code and not build the business on a support model. I agree totally and try to support developers in this way too.

I still think you guys should build a JoomlaSupermarket (not saying the JED isn't cool, but..) would be a great idea all the best templates and extensions under one roof, take the power back!

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Dr_Who — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 10:33:51 -0000

I am sorry to hear that, I hope that many of those people came back later in genuine custom. As I said, your license (not sure if that is the right term, I mean subscription perhaps?) is not a bad one in terms of allowing the user to download and play a bit (which is certainly something that I like to do).

Can you not do that with the licenses (ioncube them)? I know it must cost a bit more, but if people only buy if it costs more anyway... well, what is to worry about? Perhaps you could try another experiment such as the cheaper subscriptions thing, I have never seen anything from SIMBunch on any of these sites. Actually, you should write that up and publish it you know (maybe you have). It is good market research and would be invaluable information for the community at large. Nice to have real stats rather than guesses, and I wonder how many more companies have tried similar experiments that could be collated into a cohesive site or book?

If there is a genuine sustained drop in revenue due to this then it would seem that engagement with the community of hackers could only help. Perhaps if they see you as more like them then they would be more loyal? Have you tried advertising your help for free genuine software on warez sites maybe? Perhaps they would relish it? Perhaps I am being naive again?

I can only guess the user who posted all the stuff online was genuinely a bit bad. He agreed not to and did it anyway, yes this is wrong. I don't think that he or ordinary people would see the dramatic costs to you though. Maybe you should publish this information too (again, maybe you have)? I would like to think people will come back to you if they like the work.

Perhaps developers are a bit too reliant on other sites to promote their work in the first place? The JED refuses some things and doesn't show as much as the collated efforts of the thieves sites. Maybe you developers could run your own coalition in a 'license irrelevant' CMS market (there are some out there, but they look a bit, err naff). Templates from various clubs all in one place, with extensions and components in the next tab, all built with the latest cool software. Why doesn't this exist? A supermarket for Joomla from respected developers, and you could all have links to it from your sites like google ads for each others extensions. Seriously, window shopping still works and after a while you end up buying something for the sake of it. But consumers like choice, we need a department store type of thing going on maybe, where you can select all the things you want and go to one checkout to buy the licenses, or just download the demos (not linking everywhere to other sites, I mean a proper super market which carries the 'stock').

I am afraid I do not know the answers to 'stopping it' other than my suggestions (and I don't know if they would truly work). But I do wish you luck and hope that anyone who uses your work does give you the due credit and payment for it.

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Dr_Who — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 09:44:53 -0000

I am really not sure I like the 'who do you want to hang with, them or us' thing. If you are not with us you are against us, no?

That is seriously harsh. I was only trying to help by putting what I thought was a coherent perspective on here. Not a moral code. We all accept that warez is wrong here as far as I am aware. Is that not being a good customer anyway?

I do not 'hang' with warez hackers because their sites exist in the internet and are easily found when searching for even the genuine product developers. I have also never bothered to take the time to have a discussion with them about the wrongs of what they are doing (have a feeling I would soon be told to **** *** if I did maybe, they seem quite passionate about it. I am pretty sure most of them are 14 year old kids that can't hold a proper debate on the issue and just find it cool to see what they can do. If it was a measurement of time required to see who I am most like by which crowd I 'hang with' then the vast majority of my time is spent at proper developers doors including beta testing for my favourites. But you really mean that if I converse with them at all I am not one of you right?

Sorry, but it is not, nor ever will be so black and white, no matter how many times you try to paint it that way. Yes it is wrong, I am not going to hang them for it though, nor do I think I should be hanged for not hanging them.

I encourage everyone to pay the developers. No question.

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Dr_Who — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 09:16:51 -0000

Yes of course, wasn't meaning to offend. I am glad you have your images issue sorted :-).

I myself do not want any money back from you, I like what you did. Indeed there was some considerable playing around to do, whether to use the module or the plugin, in combination with other modules and whatever. So many options makes things complicated to get right (and I am no wizard). I wasn't criticising your license model at all, actually was praising it. In light of the above teething difficulties, with your method I was able to play around with all the ones available until I got the setup as it suited me. This is much better than selling them each at 5 (whatever currency you pick) each as I would have felt the need to try the other at some point and I guess it has a nicer feeling to it overall (your system I mean).

I am really not defending the warez people. I am sorry that people are reading this into what I am saying. I am just putting a different perspective out there, that perhaps they are not so bad. And if they haven't got any money, then how can anybody be losing any? But yes I suppose that is a bit airy fairy and disrespectful of the work. I for one think it would be brilliant if these hackers were to help out genuinely. There would be massively reduced development costs, and quite frankly they are some of the best coders, or bug finders. The pace of development would certainly rise.

Shame about the cheaper license not working out. Seems weird that it doesn't work, but can't deny the facts, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Perhaps it is like groceries, if they are too cheap people think it has something wrong with it maybe? Doesn't seem logical to prefer it more expensive and have hackers too. I think the problem is in more types of mindset that I can theorise perhaps. I can only bow to your experience of the situation overall (you have doubtless dealt with much more than I have, and probably understand what they are talking about more), but I am a fairly ordinary type of chap and I think you will find it hard to convince people that because someone copied a file and is using it that this caused your family to starve, i really do believe any with the money will pay you. unauthorised people are using the work, but I do not think you are losing revenue in significant amounts. I certainly hope this is the case.

I don't think demonising them will help. Understanding them would be better. Your points are valid and reasonable, but the one I have seen were not malicious. Not saying you haven't met ones that were, but I haven't seen any.

I agree with you totally about the hacker moaning about another hacker stealing his 'work', and agree generally in principle about the intellectual property. I am not defending them, attempting to understand them is not the same thing. I admit I could be wrong, they could be terrorists, but I would like to think not. I see them as more 'cult' types that are heavily invested in countering control systems. Hmmm, maybe that is a terrorist, dunno. Anyway, i guess that depends on how you look at it. I don't think most people will look at it with much anger at these people, although it agreed what they are doing is ultimately wrong (in spite of reasons, these do not make justifications). These people are part of a subculture, it is unlikely suppressing such a thing would be possible without making it more 'hardcore', we seem to have enough of that already.

In terms of trying to stop it, I posted some suggestions in another post, and started by just pointing out that is can lead to custom. If I would have found you without them, I do not know. Maybe, in which case the argument is irrelevant. They are there though, and do have this combative attitude to stuff not being available. Positive steps forward would probably be best taken with consideration of these potential customers.

I am not a fan of money back. Demo is much more friendly. Money back costs you initially, you feel like you are being suckered. Demo says to me 'we are proud of our work and believe if you try it you will pay'. Again not a criticism, just user feedback being as it was mentioned.

I genuinely wish you, and all the other developers here, as much success as you can handle :-).

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Dr_Who — Sun, 16 Aug 2009 07:55:07 -0000

Just staying on topic, but I first came across Ninja modules from browsing a warez site too. Though, as stated I do pay for what I use and have paid and do use your modules. Some of your stuff is very good actually, I really like your content access control plugin for instance, genius!

Also your licence is a bit more user friendly in that you allow lots of downloads under a subscription level, I think that works not too bad. Generally though unless it is a major component the costs should be kept low. Most users are not making any money to speak of and people shudder at paying even small amounts of cash for what is actually good software. Not saying that is right, but think that sales do better overall cheaper and more widespread than more cash an more exclusive no? I could be wrong about that though, haven't got any stats.

I do think the answer is as JoomlaJoe said, a more open relationship with potential customers and the developers (not just customers) using demos etc. But ultimately don't think that would stop warez people from doing what they do. I have browsed these sites quite a bit, as much interested in the people that do it as the software. There are some really clever people out there, it astonishes me how these people do what they do (both good programmers and good hackers). I don't think they are after cash (some freeloaders out there will be, but not the hackers I don't think), I think it is a hobby thing and they do it for the kicks to be honest. On one site the users set challenges to other users to crack software and whoever posts the working crack back fastest wins (I wouldn't know where to start so such things amaze me).

I have hacked a few bits of software myself nowadays (not like their hacking, I mean just adjusting templates and customising components and modules etc), and do find myself really enjoying it. I do wish I could code like these professional people, or even like the hackers, it is fun. I think that is what they are getting out of it really. Maybe we can get a real hacker on here to give us their point of view (I think that would be of genuine interest and use for the community).

Not brilliant to use your artwork though, but for poor people, i understand, it is hard to put together a graphics team. I am learning a bit of photoshop myself but it certainly doesn't come as natural to some.not sure how we could deal with that though, if it helps any though we (customers) recognise NinjaForge's style (you guys are obviously quite good at the whole themeing thing ;), your site looks great btw).

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Dr_Who — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 21:46:22 -0000

And I missed a point there, what I meant then with "Why would I want to buy a film I don't know if I am going to like?" was just that. Like I said, I just didn't buy movies before that. I had literally 4 DVD's for years, never really got into movies that much. It was seeing them online that prompted me to buy the 50 or so I have now and my iTunes downloads too, many of which I have seen before elsewhere (got carried away once I got sucked into buying movies and started building a collection).

The point is then, that I wouldn't be in the restauraunt at all, if it wasn't for the opportunity to find out that I like the food. This also fits my pattern of behaviour in real life.

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Dr_Who — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 21:34:58 -0000

That would be nice, I don't want to add up all the costs of my site, it would scare me. I am a consumerist enthusiast (hippie side of me hates that) but am not asking for any money advertising or anything else on my site. Though to be honest not really sure I should get it for free either as it is not exacty an NGO or charity site, just a hobby. The idea is nice though, I am glad to hear they do that.

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Dr_Who — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 21:28:25 -0000

To be honest I am really boring and always buy the same things because I do not want to have something I don't like. I do actually really like the open source free idea of Joomla, but have learnt that the best stuff I have to pay for. I learnt this actually with Clexus, a while back. It was highly spoken of and I had seen it on one site and was impressed and was looking for it, I couldn't find it anywhere. They had actually stopped selling it (don't know why, I would have bought it), my serach on clexus pm download did take me to a place where I could get it (though now I use uddeim, and shortly (i hope) will be moving to a different commercial product from a company whose work i really like.

It was Clexus that showed me both that paid for software is better quality, and that I could het it to play with from those sites.

I said above the demo thing would be a better option all round, but not functionally limited. I think developers are pretty smart (the code stuff impresses me) but perhaps over estimate users (I know that sounds wrong as you probably hear problems all day long, but..), I need to know not just if the software does stuff or the template looks ok, I need to know if I can work with it too. I had to adjust my template loads, I am not a coder, bits are in the template default.php bits in one css and bits in another. This all may seem second nature to you but it takes a few stares for me to work out what is going on, and I know other pepole out there on forums are worse off than me in this regard.

Also as said I am a bit of a hippie, everything should be free if you ask me, should do it for the love. But in the real world I accept I have to pay and do, upfront nowadays, which I guess you prefer ;).

Demos would cover it for software like this, there was an idea banded about a few years ago about streaming free low quality movies and people would have to pay for decent quality versions. I thought that was a brilliant idea, do you not?

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Dr_Who — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 21:10:12 -0000

Errr, if I am honest, it is not like I have actually read the thing :). Could say almost anything as far as I am concerned. If they say it is free that means I can use it free, if they say I gotta buy it for one website only or whatever, then I guess that is what I gotta do no?

Am I really supposed to read these license agreements? He he, no one does surely?

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Dr_Who — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 20:48:29 -0000

I saw your tweet, wasn't meaning to be outrageous, just thought as it seemed like an open minded and reasonable debate I would stick my two pennies worth in.

For the record, I did not actually condone warez, and I do genuinely believe people should pay for the software they use. I do. I guess I thought you might like to hear that sometimes it must surely lead to custom too, I guess wrongly or naively. I saw one of the other posts about engaging with developers too, that is kinda what I was doing, thought it may help seeing the other side of the coin (he he poor choice of phrase perhaps) .

I do genuinely believe that anyone who can pay will really pay in the end, and ultimately do not think the industry is actually suffering from this. I suppose this could be naive also though. I am a bit of a hippie at heart, this probably affects my outlook.

If you really want to stop your stuff going on these sites ioncube it. I haven't seen any ioncubed stuff on them. And better than to post false comments on them, would be to post broken software. If chances are it won't work, people would tire of that really quickly. Also you could actually do like the suggestion (I am sure some companies employ this technique, MS for example), actually upload it yourself, but with a callback that lets you know where your software is being used, though don't know about the legality of that and of course you wouldn't want the company name in trouble. It would seem only fair though if it is indeed war.

i do think the developers need support (especially the good ones) and have donated to some myself (as well as buying the licenses). I guess the trust is broken by whoever uploads the software as they are breaking the license agreement, I have never nor ever will do that, but it is hard to resist having a play with something that is there for you to try, and if you do pay if you like it it is hard to see that as a terrible act, though I do take Joomla Joe's point on supporting terrorism.

As I said, I do support the developers and would encourage everyone to do so. I love seeing the innovation in the stuff that comes out and wouldn't want anything to stifle that creative flow.

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Dr_Who — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 15:46:26 -0000

I guess the answer is as you said, decent trial periods and demos perhaps. This would in most cases negate a need for downloading stuff, but it should not be a limited demo in terms of functionality. There is no point demonstrating something partially in order to sell it (who invented that idea?), time limit would be fine, as long as it is a reasonable enough one for people who are less advanced to truly get to grips with it (so I guess the time limits would vary depending upon what type of software or how complicated the template perhaps?).

That would suit me. But the question is would it suit all the fast cash useless coders or perhaps even worse stifle burgeoning developers?

And what about people who haven't got any money? They really just supposed to sit there with nothing? Damn it, if I have to I will pay a bit more to subsidise them, poor little tykes. Be sorry for them, not threatened by them. Give unto Ceaser... Man cannot serve two masters... he he, sorry, just playing now ;)

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Dr_Who — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 15:20:44 -0000

That is a good point, but I would never pay someone for something I didn't think was their work. That happened actually on one site, someone else was selling it cheaper and I was involved in getting him to stop. I would have not been so horrified if he was giving it away, but to make money off of someone else's work certainly seems wrong to me.

I was not really justifying anything. I was responding to whether or not we should try to shut them down. I think not. This is more a business angle in my head than a legal issue. There is plenty of literature out there that speaks of private property as theft, but no need to go communist, the fact is it's out there and useful. I was hoping to show a slightly less negative point on it, but yes I guess that does not take away the worst elements. If it helps any, I tended away from them as time went on anyways, but yes I do go back every now and then to see whats about (kind of window shopping really).

I am not sure how far to worry about that either, do i refuse to smoke a spliff (which is illegal anyway) because of the terrible problem of gun crime in the drug industry? Nah! I go right ahead, stupid bloody law anyway, if it wasn't there it would be legal! Not saying your point isn't valid, but there is a limit as to how much I am gonna care, especially with software, which ultimately doesn't take anything from the original owner, just duplicates it. I know it is still intellectual property, but don't think anyone will use it for ever without paying (I paid out of choice, so some people must). I guess I generally believe in less regulation and more humanity, but yes, that is reliant upon trusting people, and I agree they are not always trustworthy (but then neither are the authorites much of the time).

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Dr_Who — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 15:07:06 -0000

I dunno, it would also seem like shrewd business. MS must have felt threatened, but obviously the threat was free software so they couldn't obviously allow it. I think they dealt with linux beautifully (from a business perspective). And as I said, I am not actually condoning it, admitting it yes, but not condoning it. I am stating it as a very useful tool, for me, for others, and I believe, for MS ;).

And I did not use that as my excuse, that was just a side point, my answers on general piracy would still be the first section really (as I can neither confirm or deny whether this is really the case with MS, I don't even work in the industry). they do seem to be highly elaborate and remarkably ineffective methods of stopping piracy though don't you think?

Best ,

Dr ?

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Dr_Who — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 14:53:17 -0000

Out of interest, how did you get there? That domain name is not the same as my email address and I am (obviously) not actually using it for anything at the moment, how did you know that was mine (I know it is similar to the email, but not the same), I am confused :-S

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Dr_Who — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 14:37:56 -0000

A slightly different point, as you said you have something to do with Linux;

Why didn't linux take over? A free operating system? The real reason, MS allowed their stuff to be pirated! Wheel, that is what I think anyway ;).

Best,

Dr Who ?

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Dr_Who — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 14:35:59 -0000

he he he, the correct domain name is anthropolis, two domains direct there ;) and yes I paid for 2JTabs, but am thinkging of replacing it with the warez version so it doesn't do that when people accidentally go via the wrong name ;)

Re: Joomla warez and downloads | Extensions - brian.teeman.net

Dr_Who — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 14:13:40 -0000

I think not, (not to take them down). I have downloaded quite a few apps before then going on to buy them. Templates too. I use them to play with. No one is seriously going to leave the template as it was when they got it, it needs to be customised, considerably in some cases, before you are happy with this thing to go live on your website! You could of course join a template clubs and have lots of templates that are not quite right to play with, or you could go to one of these sites and browse many different templates clubs templates, download any you like the look of, and then play to see if it all works out. Same goes for components and modules, I have had many that I do NOT use both paid for and not, I only wish that I had had the opportunity to have a real test of some of the crap ones that I had paid for! Sometimes developers simply do not deserve the money, not for ethical reasons, but because the work is shoddy, buggy, not worth any money at all anyways.I think the world would be a nicer place if it was trust orientated and stuff was released and paid for if liked, but then of course there would be freeloaders, I know, but that is nothing different to what we have now. If we didn't try to stop it at all development costs would be dramatically reduced, code would be open for all to see (and learn from) and the technology would doubtless progress much faster.

I am not saying really that I condone piracy as such, but I am saying it is very useful, and yes, I have used plenty of it. However you might also like to know that I have paid for everything that I like and actually use. I do the same with movies, why not? Why would I want to buy a film I don't know if I am going to like? I actually buy many more films because I like them and want to own it and have it in my collection since I started watching movies online. In truth, I didn't watch many movies before that, watching pirates online has been a serious boost to the industry as far as I personally am concerned, and likewise, I have benefited as I for the most part only own films I really do like. The same is probably true of Joomla templates and extensions, I am only really a hobbyist (so not using sites to make money), and to start with only used free extensions. Only upon finding better software available and being able to run it and play with it at will did I become a convert and now am a regular at the commercial extension companies that I trust (if you have seen enough extensions you can see who the good coders are and who are idiots pretending to have they can do it trying to make a fast buck, and there are PLENTY of them around too!). I have actually spent hundreds of pounds now on software that I genuinely believe I would not have plunged for if not being introduced to by these sites.

A slightly different point, but any real websites (ones that people actually went to and/or made any money) would not dare to have pirated stuff on, they could be sued etc. I think in reality the people who use pirated stuff long term probably haven't got any money, so I don't think you are really losing any.

Anyway, if you got this far without falling asleep, I guess I can summarise with my initial statement "I think not, (not to take them down)" only adding that if I were a test case to take into account, you would lose money by removing them.

Best to all,

Dr Who?